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Post by maaltan on Jan 12, 2006 3:21:44 GMT
I am interested in learning one of the traditional chinese instruments that have that "unique" sound. i have about 8 hours of research on the subject (this morning i didnt know what they were called). I like the guqin the best but the cost for even a student quality one of questionable quality is out of my league (~$800USD). well thats not fair, the page i found that appears to be the most popular sellers of qin (lost the link ) is about the same price for thier cheapest one. It looked alot better than the other one I also looked at the pipa, cost is more affordable (~$200USD) but after watching videos of people playing it, i dont think my fingers will work like that. It is still a possibility though. I found the erhu and I feel that I have the highest probabilty of learning it. it is running at about $150.Only problem I have found basically no learning material about it. I have seen the ebay vcds mentioned several times on here. If i had a good video set and a good in depth book in english i could probably learn enough for my needs. I dont aspire to be great, just be able to play it well enough to satisfy my own personal interests. I would like a erhu that will make descent sounds not sound like a plastic guitar or whatever. If i get into it, i will probably purchase a better one later on. Also a good tutorial about tuning and maintaining the erhu would be nice. i have glanced at a few posts about this subject already on here, but i have not read in depth (basically since i dont own one yet, i dont know what you are talking about) I realize a trainer would be best. But i live in a cultural wasteland possessed with "fiddles" and "banjos". Sorry, a bit harsh again... but i estimate i am about 800 miles away from the closest erhu at the moment. Much less someone who knows how to play it. Even if i had some good clear videos of a performance, i could probably pick up a few things eventually. Also, some sheet music for some traditional tunes would be nice, again I have been unable to find any. Basically what im getting at is i would like to know that i would actually have a source of information before i buy into this hobby/profession/skill whatever you want to call it. thanks for your help in advance.
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Post by blueharp on Jan 12, 2006 8:50:12 GMT
Hi maaltan! Welcome to the family. Guqin is a great instrument but it isn't terribly easy. As you discovered the hardest thing is to get a decent beginner instrument. A poorly made guqin can put you off of learning in a hurry! Erhu is great. Do you play bowed strings already? It can make things a whole lot easier. It is getting more difficult to find inexpensive instruments - our resident experts (you know who you are ) can help out. From my understanding most of the learning materials for erhu are in Chinese. I believe that there are some by George Gao (www.georgegao.com) among others, that are in English. The VCDs are very helpful but can never really take the place of a teacher. Still, they are a great place to start. Take a look through the past postings, there is a great deal of information there that you might find useful. Have you considered guzheng? It is fairly rewarding to learn - you start getting good sounds right away - and they are quite affordable (~$225 US + shipping) for a very decent beginner instrument. The notation for most chinese music is something called jianpu. It uses numbers instead of notes. For instance he notes of a C scale are numbered 12356 (cdega) and the rhythm signs are pretty much the same. It looks a bit strange at first but once you get used to it, it is easy. Here is a great website where jianpu and western notation are used in parallel. In addition there is a 5 minute intro to erhu video! www.jiebingchen.com/erhu/notation.shtmlGood luck on your pursuit of Chinese music!
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Post by maaltan on Jan 12, 2006 15:09:59 GMT
I spent all night reading all posts on this forum. I decided to purchase a erhu from ebay (i know bad idea... but i have paypal buyer protection.. and i have unfortunatly had experience with it). it was supposed to be rosewood with real snakeskin. The bonus is it came with several things alread (like 2 extra sets of strings, 2 bridges, tone generator (redundant, but i can always reuse the electronics), hard case, rosin, certificite of authenticity etc.) it didnt mention the cloth .. but that looks easy enough to improvise, I have large variety of cloth scraps laying around. I hope i didnt screw up too badly. BTW the woman with the erhu is holding it more correctly now. still looks a bit funny any stiff. Of course im sure i wont look any better for a while . as for the guzheng. That huge thing is available for $225? and the guqin is $800. Dont understand. I discounted the guzheng first thing because space is a huge concern. tiny appartment. I mesured and i THINK i will have enough room to draw the bow without rearranging. I will admit, i know no musical instrument other than a little (very) keyboarding so i know i have a hard road ahead of me. I am well versed in theory though (HA ) As for the jianpu notation, it looks easier than western.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jan 12, 2006 17:08:57 GMT
Guqin can cost as little as $500. But that's when the quality may not be so good. $600-700 is probably a good price for a beginners qin.
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Post by maaltan on Jan 13, 2006 1:18:50 GMT
i went ahead and got some violin resin from local music store. it was $4 and im sure its very cheap and probably will not work very well. I wonder how cheap. Maybe someone will recognize it Its in a red box. On the box it has the following: Super sensitive (music string co) NO.912 Rosin Dark Violin viola cello Ahh a web address. here it is. its the dark rosin on the top right www.supersensitive.com/html/content/main_superrosin.htm
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Post by blueharp on Jan 13, 2006 8:08:06 GMT
You might be surprised how well it works.
String players have their preferences about rosin - each kind has its own strengths and weaknesses.
Personally I have:
D'addario dark Pirastro goldflex Pops bass rosin Hill dark Liebenzeller Gold IV Iyi Guenlerde Kullanin (From Turkey)
All except the Liebenzeller were between $4 and $8. They each have their own characteristics.
Dark rosin is stickier and is great in cooler/cold weather. The light rosin is best when it is very hot as it doesn't melt as easily in the heat.
Every instrument/bow/player combination is a bit different and rosin is a very inexpensive thing to experiment with.
A cake of rosin lasts a very long time so in the long run it really is cheap!
My current favorite is the Liebenzeller, a pricey $16. They make a version called IVH that has honey in it! I wouldn't know whether to use it on the bow or eat it! ;D
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Post by maaltan on Jan 13, 2006 13:54:44 GMT
Ok, as if i needed to prove my inexperience any more . When searching about applying rosin, i keep hitting some reoccuring themes. First with a new cake scratch the top with sandpaper to make it dusty. second one is to go slowly so that the dust goes on the bow without melting (i can assume if you go to fast the friction will glue the cake to the bow). what i dont understand do i have to keep dusting the cake or will it take care of itself once you start using it. Also, i've read never touch the bow hairs because the oils from your hand will cause slick spots destroying the bow. also, Didn't I see somewhere (on here i think) that "galloping horses" was a traditional graduation piece that marked the transition from beginner to intermediate. I finally found an MP3 of it. Dear god i would hate to see the exam for the other steps. Of course it was one of the "masters" (defined by me as someone that has a cd ) playing it so it may have been greatly embellished. the bow (assume) kept making a horse galloping clopping sound that accompanied the main melody asyncronously. I cant figure out how it was being made. Of course it wasn't a video but my imagination is usually pretty good.
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Post by paulv on Jan 13, 2006 13:57:26 GMT
My current favorite is the Liebenzeller, a pricey $16. They make a version called IVH that has honey in it! I wouldn't know whether to use it on the bow or eat it! Everything about Liebenzeller is pricey! That's interesting about the honey component. I guess now the bow mites can have dessert after eating the proteins in the horse hair! I once thought about buying Liebenzeller Gold, but my teacher recommended Pierre Guillame which is what I've been using. It was interesting that a famous strings store in an affluent suburb of Boston doesn't carry Liebenzeller -- the next time I go there, I'm going to ask them why. Regards, Paul...
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Post by maaltan on Jan 13, 2006 14:04:02 GMT
ahh man now i have to worry about bow mites? hmm insecticidal soap work? flea soap? mothballs? . . . unless of course this is a running joke to trick the newbies into beliving nonsense. (like the "snipe hunt" parents always pull on children somewhere in thier lives) Meanies j/k
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Post by calden on Jan 13, 2006 16:07:15 GMT
ahh man now i have to worry about bow mites? hmm insecticidal soap work? flea soap? mothballs? . . . unless of course this is a running joke to trick the newbies into beliving nonsense. (like the "snipe hunt" parents always pull on children somewhere in thier lives) Meanies j/k No joke. I've got bow bugs in my fiddle case (I hardly ever play it, and they love to nest where it's dark and undisturbed.) They eat away at glue and hair. Go to www.johnson-inst.com/Bitten%20By%20Bug.htmfor more information. Carlos
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Post by paulv on Jan 13, 2006 16:30:25 GMT
ahh man now i have to worry about bow mites? hmm insecticidal soap work? flea soap? mothballs? . . . unless of course this is a running joke to trick the newbies into beliving nonsense. (like the "snipe hunt" parents always pull on children somewhere in thier lives) Meanies j/k No joke. I've got bow bugs in my fiddle case (I hardly ever play it, and they love to nest where it's dark and undisturbed.) They eat away at glue and hair. Go to www.johnson-inst.com/Bitten%20By%20Bug.htmfor more information. Carlos Wow Carlos, that's the company I was talking about earlier, and also where I learned about bow mites. See....... you really are a shifu!!! Regards, Paul...
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Post by davidmdahl on Jan 13, 2006 17:52:05 GMT
When searching about applying rosin, i keep hitting some reoccuring themes. First with a new cake scratch the top with sandpaper to make it dusty. second one is to go slowly so that the dust goes on the bow without melting (i can assume if you go to fast the friction will glue the cake to the bow). what i dont understand do i have to keep dusting the cake or will it take care of itself once you start using it. Also, i've read never touch the bow hairs because the oils from your hand will cause slick spots destroying the bow. I never used sandpaper on my rosin or made any particular effort to go slowly. The need for the sandpaper may depend on the type of rosin. I suppose you have to go slowly enough to keep the hairs on the cake, and there is no need to rush. The proof of your rosin technique is in the results. If you get enough rosin on the the full length of the bow hairs on both sides, the bow will grab the strings at any point and you will get a good sound. I do avoid touching the hairs with my fingers. Just keep your hands clean and try not to touch the bow hair very often. You don't have to pretend they are red-hot. also, Didn't I see somewhere (on here i think) that "galloping horses" was a traditional graduation piece that marked the transition from beginner to intermediate. I finally found an MP3 of it. Dear god i would hate to see the exam for the other steps. Please don't let any tunes intimidate you. Learn step-by-step, don't take short-cuts, and you will get there. That horse tune is flashy but not as difficult as it sounds. The notes lay well under the fingers. No, I don't play it yet, but this is what I hear from my teacher. Frankly, I am more interested in being able to play slowly with lots of expression, effective vibrato, and rock-solid accurate pitch. Best wishes, David
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Post by maaltan on Jan 14, 2006 5:22:10 GMT
ok, for better or worse. I think I have aquired the basics for self teaching. instrument, various implements of instruction, hmm. I guess I should look for some sheet music for some simple traditional songs. Can you forward me to any reputable sites? Maybe somebody on here have some old beginner's books they have outgrown they would be willing to sell/copy/email/etc. to me? I figure one or two songs would be enough to start on. Otherwise i might be forced to learn metallica songs on the erhu (abomination... or their next album?) ... Also, I hope you all don't mind but I get quite vocal sometimes on online forums. If i decide to continue this hobby(technically i havnt even started yet), this subfourm may become quite vocal with all my questions . I also type 70+ wpm from an almost unrefined stream of thought at times so i may diverge on a tangent. Thanks for your help so far, you all have been the most friendly music community I have ever been around. Every music teacher/group I have ever had has been the knuckle breaker types ( so strict you couldn't possibly have any fun whatsoever doing it). Heck i would have probably been kicked out of the room for making that bow mite remark earlier if I had made it locally. ... Also i found the reason why high grade rosins are not popular around here. not because its a low income area either. Apparently the "good stuff" has too smooth of a sound for the "fiddlin' around" that goes on around here. they want the unprocessed gritty sound.
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Post by paulv on Jan 15, 2006 0:10:57 GMT
I guess I should look for some sheet music for some simple traditional songs. Can you forward me to any reputable sites? Maaltan, try www.cadenzamusic.bizThey have many scores for erhu. I've already downloaded them and have them zipped into four groups. The file sizes are anywhere between 3.5MB to 7.5MB. If you want, I can send them to you next week sometime. Regards, Paul...
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Post by maaltan on Jan 15, 2006 3:11:58 GMT
how did i miss that .. i scoured that site for info earlier and missed the big shiny "LIBRARY" link.
Unfortunately, all the links give me a 403 forbidden. I will try it again later to see if they get it fixed.
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Post by davidmdahl on Jan 15, 2006 9:09:14 GMT
how did i miss that .. i scoured that site for info earlier and missed the big shiny "LIBRARY" link. Unfortunately, all the links give me a 403 forbidden. I will try it again later to see if they get it fixed. Don't left click the erhu scores. Use the right mouse button to download the score files. Presuming you are using Internet Explorer, choose "Save Target As..." Good luck. Best wishes, David
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Post by maaltan on Jan 15, 2006 14:33:18 GMT
no good. you get a file. but its an invalid image file. if you change extension you see that you just saved the 403 forbidden webpage. --------------------------------------------------- Ok, ive got them. I had to goto the sky.prohosting.com/cadenzaa/ site directly and grab them from there. The site must have enacted some sort of direct linking ban. if your browser passes a referrer tag (the place you came from) that is not the site and the target is an image. It gives you forbidden. alot of the cheaper web hosting providers do this now. You can spoof (ie LIE) your referrer tag also. I think there is a firefox extension that lets you do that. Problem i am having now is traslating the names to something i can search for. I would like to have a sound file (cd, mp3 whatever) and matching sheet music so I can 1: know if i am reading music right and 2: have something to compare my playing to.
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Post by calden on Jan 15, 2006 15:54:48 GMT
Maaltan:
I'm in admiration of your dedication and interest. If only you could see someone play for a short time it would be a lot of help. In my beginning months I found that I was playing incorrectly. It sounded like the recordings but I wasn't using enough bow, my hand positions were in the ballpark according to the pictures in the book ( and I had translated a lot of the Chinese instruction) but not accurate enough, and I wasn't playing with enough pressure on the bow.
So, where is it you live that's a "cultural wasteland" with banjos and fiddles? The hollers of Kentucky? The desert wastelands of Nevada? The hilltop compounds of Idaho? It's entirely possible that someone on this forum might be passing through Hicksville at some point and could meet you and show what they know. Even if it's not a bona fide teacher a little help in the beginning goes a long way.
Carlos
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Post by maaltan on Jan 16, 2006 5:33:21 GMT
Almost hit it on first try. SW-VA USA. That is close as i can get on a public forum ( you wouldn't believe how many targeted phishing scams i get on that vague information). as for dedication and interest. You may be too generous. Interest yes. Much interest. I tend to collect mass amounts of information before i can determine my dedication in a subject. When im on here discussing my next erhu purchase. then we can talk dedication. Don't get me wrong. I will be giving it a good hard try but sometimes things just don't click. I have watched several videos online of various qualities frame by frame to help determine fingering positions and bowing technique. I have also purchased a VCD set online which should show up next week sometime. I realize it doesn't take the place of at least a couple of hours of in person training. The only thing that i would probably be able to offer such an impromptu tutor is maybe a dinner at one of our local eating estabishments and plenty of computer advice. (computers are my primary interest/knowledge/profession, especially webpage design/developemnt) I have lots of information in my head... now for the hard part. Transfering the information to my hands. and cultural wasteland i mentioned before was a bad choice of words. an area cannot be without culture. Just because the area's culture does not match the ideas of the so called intellectuals doesn't mean it doesn't matter. To reject the value of that culture simply because i do not like it would make me the same as the ones I refered to earlier with that statment. Lets modify that statment with i am "morbidly bored" with this one being the only one available for SOO long. But enough sappy politically correct stuff (although i do mean it)...
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Post by calden on Jan 16, 2006 15:31:00 GMT
... I have watched several videos online of various qualities frame by frame to help determine fingering positions and bowing technique. I have also purchased a VCD set online which should show up next week sometime. I realize it doesn't take the place of at least a couple of hours of in person training. ... I have lots of information in my head... now for the hard part. Transfering the information to my hands. ... and cultural wasteland i mentioned before was a bad choice of words. an area cannot be without culture. ... Lets modify that statment with i am "morbidly bored" with this one being the only one available for SOO long. maaltan: Good luck! Let me advocate that you still try and find someone - you never know where an erhu player is hiding. On my last trip to Taiwan I ran into a young woman studying erhu at the Culture University. (My wife was in Taipei for work and this woman was doing a newspaper interview with her.) Turned out she had lived in Kentucky in a small city for a year as a high school exchange student and had brought her erhu with her and played it a lot. I live in Northeast Washington State, a place, by many people's reckonings, is devoid of hot culture (famous saying: *Spokane - set your watch back five years when you arrive at the airport*) yet there was a piano student from Taiwan at the local state university a few years back, who at home was also an erhu master. So ask around, keep searching - ya never know where you might find a Chinese person who studied erhu as a kid and has one sitting in the closet. There are some things to FEEL when you hold the bow - pressure points on your hand and fingers - that pictures and videos have a hard time conveying. About the culture thing - I also play Irish music and American Old-Time music, specifically clawhammer banjo, and I find a great deal of correlation between Chinese trad music and American Old-Time music. The keys and pentatonic-feel scales are similar, the song structures are simple melodies based on sung folk tunes, there is a repetition of basic themes with some embelllishments in second parts, the sounds are similar with interplay between bowed and percussively plucked instruments, and it goes on. I've incorporated erhu into some Irish music and it lays right in there nicely. I'm simply amazed at how my studies in Chinese trad music feed my Celtic and Old-Time music work and phrasing, and vice-versa. One of my goals this year is to make a collection of recordings of fretless clawhammer banjo and erhu. Slip and slide! In fact, there is a great CD by The Chieftains called The Chieftains in China (Shanachie records, 1987) that is a live recording of a tour they did way back then. It includes them performing with some traditional music ensembles, playing both Chinese and Irish melodies. Expertly done and well worth having for anyone who likes both kinds of music. Imagine "Horse Race" played by a master Irish fiddler!! Carlos
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Post by maaltan on Jan 19, 2006 4:38:37 GMT
blah still waiting for erhu to show up. Dang holiday screwed up shipping around here. its been sitting in a warehouse for 5 days now... But anyway. I have had limited success in translating titles. Can someone give me a hint on fan shen ge? Literal translation of symbols is "turn body song". dancing song maybe? "Bei ge" means sad song right? i think i found an mp3 that matches the music pretty good (again im still weak on reading the music) even though it is D key, it appears slightly advanced because of very rapid note sequences and use of all octaves in the key. What would be a good piece to learn first? I plan on doing the scales and stuff first of course but I tend to want to totally trash a piece now and again just to see how i am progressing in a practical way. I also tend to be a top down learner. at least with programming languages. I typically learn a new programming language by just sitting down and breaking apart a complex program rather than starting with simple "hello world" program and building. Also, I have asked around to see if anyone plays the erhu. The only hit i got was from a guy at the local chinese restaurant. He said he THINKS his grandma used to play it and she comes to the US to visit every year or so. He didn't say much more so i don't know if he had any interest or not in the subject. i frequent the resturant so maybe he will let me know if she is interested next time she comes in. *shrug* .. ahh well a slim sliver of hope is better than none i guess. we shall see... I have found someone that plays bowed instruments so maybe he can help me derive some information. But Here i go rambling again. I must find a new hobby to take a break from this new hobby before i get burnt out on it before i even get the instrument. j/k ------------------------------------------------ edit: Ok dang it what does erhu symbols mean in english? Er is obviously 2 hu is complicated. I have seen the following translations: Northern North barbarian strings (as in 2 strings) southern ( ) the online translator tells me the particular character for hu means "/(surname)/beard/what why how/mustache/" also i have seen hu translated as "from ancient times" I thought that was gu as in guqin. wikipedia says: The first character of the name of the instrument (二) èr is derived from the fact that it has two strings. The second character (胡) hú indicates that it is part of the huqin family. The name huqin means barbarian instruments, showing that the instrument may have originated from regions to the north or west of China. That sounds the "most" right.
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Post by sanmenxia on Jan 19, 2006 9:38:07 GMT
Hi, I think fan shen ge and Bei ge are quite advance pieces with very high notes/positions etc. Pieces that stay in the first/upper position would be better for a beginner, like zi zhu diao, (purple bamboo melody), but it doesn't seem to be on the cadenza site. I don't mean you can't try advance pieces, but unless you have a solid basic technique, I don't see the point. And of course fast notes can be played slowly at first for practice. If you want to ‘trash’ a piece, go for something up tempo like sai ma (horse race) sky.prohosting.com/cadenzaa/saimaqp.jpg I hope you can find a good teacher, as others have said it’s really important to both start with and have someone to show you the right techniques.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jan 19, 2006 12:13:58 GMT
'Hu' is the name of a tribe that existed northwest of China (around 2000 years ago). The erhu originated from there (I think). And yes, the 'gu' of guqin means ancient. Though you can simply call it qin.
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Post by paulv on Jan 19, 2006 13:56:18 GMT
'Hu' is the name of a tribe that existed northwest of China (around 2000 years ago). The erhu originated from there (I think). Charlie, That's the same story I've heard, and I've also heard that some people believe that the Hu tribe did not originate the erhu but obtained the erhu from the Persians. It's interesting to hear about the origins of all these traditional musical instruments. Regards, Paul...
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jan 19, 2006 14:20:11 GMT
Well, I'm not that versed in history of instruments other than the qin, but that's what I heard.
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