Composer of Fighting the Typhoon + "Master" debate

[pk]

(Hong Kong, 24 October 2005) - World-renowned Guzheng composer and virtuoso, Master Wang Chang Yuan is making a short visit in Hong Kong at the end of October 2005 in order to promote her 50th Anniversary Concert in February 2006.

Master Wang Chang Yuan is known as the composer of the world's most famous piece for Guzheng - Zhan Tai Feng (Fighting with Typhoon).

Everyone is invited to the following 3 free concertinos of Master Wang Chang Yuan as well as her Guzheng Seminar. These events are being organized by GuzhengOne.com.

For detailed information, please visit: www.guzheng.idv.hk/en/news_2005.php#wcy_scheduled

[sleepy]

Wonder how we define a musician "master" these days... What makes a "master"?

Curious thought: would one's recognition as "master" become eternal no matter what, once such recognition is established?

[davidmdahl]

sleepy said:

Wonder how we define a musician "master" these days... What makes a "master"?

In theory, a master has "mastered" all aspects of a particular instrument, and a particular tradition of playing it. This accomplishment is not self-designated but should be recognized by the other masters of the particular school or tradition. In Japan there is a fairly established and rigorous system by which a student is apprenticed to a master and progresses in much the same way a martial-arts student earns belts.

The koto master Elizabeth Falconer's website has an interesting account of her journey to becoming a master. www.kotoworld.com/mastered.html.

I am not familiar with the Chinese system. In the USA I have noticed that some people have assumed the honor with little justification, using it as a tool to market themselves. If the "master" has some sort of certificate conferred by a school with some pedigree, the designation may mean something.

Best wishes,

David

[Vi An]

I never did like terms such as "master" or "genious" and such.. Do not assume that a "master" is a great musician by any stretch of the context of musical expression. A "master" would agree that they are never done "learning" and would not just assume the possition of "master" so easily, often times asking not be called "master".

I would prefer the terms "mentor", "teacher" and "student". The relationships should be defined as teacher and student, rather than God and diciple; makes things more relaxed and achievable. The teacher and his pupil...

Often times the students far surpass that of the teachers who showed them "the ways".

When I think of "masters" I think of the "untouchable" and "unreachable".

When I think of my own musicianship and my passion towards guzheng -- I think of love, growth and sharing. I do not feel the need to "master" my instrument, but I feel a strong desire to let it become my voice from the soul. A sound which transcends time and space for me so I can reach on wards and out wards towards all the possibilities outside of "tradition", outside of the box -- to discover and to give it all back..

[davidmdahl]

I don't think of being a "master" or having the goal of mastering something as a negative or pompous thing. If our goal is to make expressive music unhampered by limitation, then mastery is a good thing. If I have mastery, then technical challenges are not a big deal and I can focus on making good music. I should add that this is a long way off for me. <g>

A music master need not be a great musician, but they should have mastery of their instrument and know how to teach effectively. I have studied with teachers who were at varying points on the road to mastery, and I learned from each of them. The most experienced of them were usually the best teachers. None of them made me feel like I was a worm in the presence of greatness, even when I was. <g>

Those who I consider my music masters I call by whatever is their preference. For my dan bau teacher, things are relaxed so I use her first name. My erhu teacher I call Dr. Yang. My Saigon master is a true grand master of 89 years of age, and I call him Thay (teacher). Thay Vinh Bao taught the teacher of my teacher's teacher. I would not deny him any honor he is comfortable with.

Best wishes,

David

[carol]

I think the terms "master" as well as "professor" are over used in Chinese music community.
Here in Los Angeles, every body put these titles on their name card even though they have never taught any lessons in a university.

Although there is no established system to obtain the title of a "master", I think the general rules still apply. One has to have studied the instrument to its highest level and have recognized contributions to the instrument for 20 years or so.

I would use the title to show my appreciation and recognition on the the person's contribution in the field. It doesn't necessary mean I like or dislike his music.

[Charlie Huang]

Well, you need to have had a PhD, go through teaching from lecturer, senior lecturer, etc till you get proclaimed a professor in an academic establishment. LXT is a professor and I think he went through the correct path to get to there, plus his musicality only supports it.

As for master, it is only a title that you yourself place upon yourself, or others. Some can be considered masters of their art, but unless many recognise that, then it is only a pseudo title.

[gili]

The title of 'mastership' is honorary and is given at other people’s discretion. Frankly, few people in China are called ‘master’. There are legitimate standard titles like, educators, professors, highly-achieved graduate students or well-known performers. Even someone so good and renowned like Wang Zhongshan or Li Meng is addressed as a professor or educators. Those who are honored the title ‘master’ are mainly deceased or retired. Somewhat retired pioneers like Fan Shange, Wang Chuanyuan and Xiang Sihua being called 'master' is more readily acceptable. I think some people may be sensitive to the word 'master' being attached to Zou Lunlun’s name while her achievement may not be comparatively up-to-par yet. Like PK said, 'Modesty is a virtue.' People respect modesty more than proclaimation.

[davidmdahl]

This topic of who deserves to be addressed as "Master" is another that needs a rest. It is of some interest as a cultural aspect, but it is somewhat off the subject.

Posts which are critical of others, on or off-list, should be done with some sensitivity. I particularly hope we can avoid assaulting the character or ethics of others, although musical choices are fair game in my opinion.

Let it be about the music.

Best wishes,

David

[gili]

Forum should not have to be monitored or censored. We can have discussions and arguments or debates without having to worry about other competing sales people’s reputation. We are discussing information opened to the public, not other people's personal life. To voice the preference or disapproval of someone's music is not a personal attack. Whatever happened to free speech?

[davidmdahl]

No one has been kicked off the forum. No messages have been deleted. This thread has not been locked. I am just asking that we voluntarily refrain from attacks on anyone's character. There is quite a bit left for us to argue about and discuss, particularly when it is about taste in music.

Please do not take offense. I am not trying to criticise anyone or be heavy handed. I wish to prevent an escalation of anger and flames.

gili said:

To voice the preference or disapproval of someone's music is not a personal attack. Whatever happened to free speech?

I agree completely and do not wish to discourage such expression. Fire away!

Best wishes,

David

[YouLanFengChune]

I need to post this somewhere

I'm sorry for kicking up a row, on another thread, which I truthfully declare, has nothing to do with commercial gains, but all to do with rights of a fellow human.

I apologise without reservation for causing undue inconvenience to the moderators and to the people who are innocently dragged into this. This forum is a happy and fun place, and I wish to keep it that way, participating happily as I have always been. The war which i still need to fight will carry on elswhere.

Kudos to all those who have helped voice the displeasure we have at certain incidents. As for legal actions, I am a student of business and business law and laws of international trade. So please do not use "legal actions" to threaten my friends on the forum.

Thank You

[gili]

davidmdahl said:

I agree completely and do not wish to discourage such expression. Fire away!

I think you are taking this very personally. I like Wang Chang Yuan's music and respect Master Xu Zhen Gao alot. I am just not fond of Zou Lunlun's style and music. She may be a great person. I am not digging into other people's personal life or inner character. There are good and bad music. Good and bad are both subjective. A forum is for both objective and commonly subjective viewpoints. We can have a good debate and that is part of the purpose of coming together to exchange viewpoints. It is about the quality of music or the instruments that produces music. A performer is a vehicle that produce music. People are part of the music production process. The measuring stick to good or bad music could be relative. To measure relativity, we need examples or comparisons. That is just one dynamic way of quantification. It is not right or wrong, legal or illegal. It is just a viewpoint. Just because you don't like someone else's viewpoint doesn't mean you have to take it so personally. It is not about you nor me.

When a viewpoint is popular, it will be represented. One person can be removed from the forum, but a popular viewpoint means removing many people. Removing people to prevent expression is creating a lopsided representation. Doesn't that defeats the purpose of having a forum to exchange viewpoints? Freedom of speech does not mean shouting at people, but expressing in a civilized manner.

[sleepy]

davidmdahl said:

This topic of who deserves to be addressed as “Master”; is another that needs a rest. It is of some interest as

My original question does not involve the "who" part, the focus is on "what". However, the way you've rephrased it could somehow let others think it was I who initiated such a taboo topic.

Members might have strayed into forbidden grounds during the course of discussion, a shut-up request usually does more harm than good because it might create bad feelings. (Generic, debate-free dialougues is the way to go here guys, it seems. ;D)

Oh well, perhaps I've said too much. If I've hit a nerve somewhere I apologize.

[Charlie Huang]

OK...

I'm gonna systematically shot people in the foot here. Firstly, David-san is right to worry, a little, about the forum's longevity threat due to posts / threads that potentially can piss people that outside of this forum off, leading to disgruntled companies (and I use that word for a reason) going off about threatening legal this legal that. But, I think David-san may have, how shall I put it, a tad bit much anxiety, thus some topics that are not in the 'danger zone' gets a word from him. I have no problem with this topic, coz it is a discussion about a simple topic people may discuss, about whether masters are masters, etc. It only gets out of hand when slagging matches between who is the best and who is the worse, etc comes about.

Secondly, I've indicated in previous threads, that we are hardly immune to outside forces. The companies go on about reputation, etc and they see this little forum can be potentially a threat to that (though I do not see that very much to say yes, taking legal action against a little forum like this which does not seem to break any law (I mean, as if we are inducing terrorism, a child porn site, or whatever horrendous concotion from evil under the bloody sun). If they do take action against us, it would create a laughing stock of these companies rather than save them from this non-existant threat). Nevertheless, we must subcum to these rather what I call, paranoia of these companies and ask for us to avoid topic which could potentially cause them to rupture their weak spleens and blood vessels, not because we devalue our freedom of speech (you cannot say that this forum is not free. Compare it to other forums which even go to the extent of moderating your spelling) but because we don't want to get into the cross-hairs of these paranoid companies / individuals who are touchy-feely about any negative comment that is thrown at them. This is life I'm afraid. And we rather swallow prides than face a pointless firing squad. I value the existance (thus continuation of free dialogue betwwen us like minded individuals) of this forum rather one's pride. As for the Master Xu thread. Yes, one is right to raise it so that people know about these intrigues, but after, it's done. There is no need to continue it any further for this forum, for it has fulfilled it's role. Whatever happens next should be outside this forum (we don't want colour-commentary about court cases, what the parties get up to, etc). If they get blasted, then one more post about it will suffice. But other than that, it is rather a surplus. And we can all be confinded that we started the ball rolling, so let us be happy about that instead.

Now, there are more better issues to discuss.

[/rant over]

[pk]

In the guzheng context, the English word "Master" is being used as one of the possible translations of Chinese word "Lao shi".

"Lao shi" can also be translated as "teacher", however, doing so would be inaccurate, as teachers in China are held in much higher respect then their counterparts outside China.

"Master" basically means a person, who has achieved great level of skill and knowledge.

As far as China, to become a "Master", you don't have to get a unversity degree, although most people do. Great level of skill and knowledge is usually attained by very hard work over the span of many years. Attending a university can help in this process.

Anyone can call themsleves a "Master", but they must be ready to bear the consequences -- to be of help to students and prove that they have the right to such title.

In case of Master Wang Chang Yuan, she does not call herself a "Master". It is everyone else around her, who respect her contribution to the world of guzheng music and her guzheng virtuoso skill -- we call her "Master."

[Vi An]

Much appreciated. Thank you all.

Vi An

[pk]

Just to remind you all, and especially those who are willing to jump on the plane on a moment's notice .......

[glow=yellow,2,400]Master Wang Chang Yuan's 50th Anniversary Concert[/glow]
will be held at Hong Kongs's Polytechnic University on February 17 and 18.

Highlight of the event will be grand performance of "Fighting with Typhoon", performed by 50 guzhengs.

Report from this concert will be published soon after.

[pk]

davidmdahl said:

... I am not familiar with the Chinese system. In the USA I have noticed that some people have assumed the honor with little justification, using it as a tool to market themselves. If the "master" has some sort of certificate conferred by a school with some pedigree, the designation may mean something ...

Yes and no.

Whether it is the music field or any other, you will always find people assuming titles and people acquiring university degrees.

Way too often, university degree is not a proof of any knowledge or skill. A university degree is only a proof of attending a university, and few times a proof of passing an exam. In most cases, companies in the USA prefer to hire experinced professional over a fresh university graduate.

I have also heard that there are many people in certain countries, who, while on desperate quest to make living, call themselves "Guzheng Masters", or even claim to be famous in their home country, but their skills are below average.

There are lawyers, engineers, doctors ... who always insist to be called "Doctor XYZ" and proudly flash their university diploma, but their skills are below average or worse.

What it boils down to is our own judgement. It is up to us to decide whether we are being decieved or not.

A title is only a title -- a suggestion, an invitation to think.

[sanmenxia]

I think the use of the English word “master” as a title meaning teacher/expert in the Chinese sense is not appropiate and is misleading. In English “master” can mean expert, but it is not used as a title in this sense.
In English, titles usually have some sort of official status, titles like Doctor or Professor are official titles, either you are or you aren’t, they don’t depend on what people think.
However I think it’s OK to use “Master------” in private exchanges in English with “Master------”, and with students and friends of “Master------” as a sign of respect.

Of course in Chinese culture, the use of “lao shi”, “da shi”, “shi fu” is a different thing altogether.

Finally, anyone who uses “Master” as a title in their own name is just using the word for self promotion.

Just my own opinion of course.

[gili]

sanmenxia said:

Finally, anyone who uses “Master” as a title in their own name is just using the word for self promotion.

Sanmenxia, I completely agree with you. Just a brief search through the internet, how many guzheng teachers actually call themselves 'Master'? In this case, humbleness is much more appreciated than boast. Just like how the term 'Professor' is used, if an educator has not received doctoral training, but has significant teaching experience, than the term 'Teacher -------' would be more appropriate, in my opinion. Technically speaking, even doctoral practice does not equate to 'Doctor'. Only through the Dean or Committee's 'RECOGNITION' does the candidate officially confer a degree for such accomplishment. Likewise, guzheng teacher should not call themselves 'Master' no matter how good they think they are, unless the general public as well as those in the same field officially confers such honorary title. Through such distinction, the public use of 'mastership' would not be censored.

[gili]

pk said:

Way too often, university degree is not a proof of any knowledge or skill. A university degree is only a proof of attending a university, and few times a proof of passing an exam. In most cases, companies in the USA prefer to hire experinced professional over a fresh university graduate.

I do not agree that a degree is just a proof of attendance and passing a few tests. 'Technical speaking', the candidate must have met minimal achievement as per university standard in order to be recognized by the Dean to receive the degree. In your example of 'master', it's like buying FDA products without the approvals. Doesn't mean you won't get anything good, just not the best measuring stick.

True, in the U.S., companies often prefer to hire candidates with experience over those that don't. That is because you are comparing fresh grads vs. the experienced (an unfair comparison). And in most cases, a 'professional' means 'beyond' pedigree as a 'young professional' is someone with experience after graduation. In some case, one without the pedigree must prove his/her equivalents to get 'professional' license. The real case commonly involves someone with BOTH experience and pedigrees competing with someone that just has experience. If the candidate without pedigree is chosen, why? It's cheaper.

[Charlie Huang]

You know. I am guilty of me having the title 'Master' stuck on my bank account statements (that my parents opened after my birth). Of course, that 'master' as in 'title given to the eldest son and heir of the family; title of boy or young man with no superior title' [Oxford Illustrated Dictionary, 1976]. Dunno why they haven't changed it to 'Mr' in these past few years (I'm 22 already), but at least it is fun to have... ha ha!

I'm wondering, is there such thing as a Laureate in the Chinese music world? We have the Kisei (Qisheng) in the Weiqi world...

[gili]

Are you talking about 'Mister' instead of 'Master'? Speaking of which, those ARE offically titles too. The guys are lucky because that's only 'Mister' or 'Mr.' It is too bad for the ladies from 'Miss' to 'Mrs.' On the bright side, I guess 'Mrs.' is EARNED (heheh) after an official 'marriage certificate'.

How about calling Zhou Wang 'Master'? Well, she's officially a 'modest' assistant professor, BUT have contributed much and 'mastered' a ton. Kind of feel her 'assistant' title is understated. Why is it so hard for guzheng educators to earn 'professorship' in China?

[Charlie Huang]

Can of worms: Should we use the Master/Mistress distinction?