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Post by Vi An on Oct 25, 2005 23:26:38 GMT
Dear lovers of guzheng,
Word of warning I thought I'd send across the boards. When we purchace expensive musical instruments especially those which exceed 1200USD in price we expect the top quality materials go into making that instrument yes??
Just to add to what Carol said about we have to keep on top of the makers and let them know of our needs and this helps them improve and makes us more satisfied consumers...
My beautiful boyfriend made a startling discovery today as I was practicing on the Scarlet Bird 26 stringed grand guzheng. There was a ray of light that casted upon the tail end of the instrument and we took a moment to admire the ghostly wood grains appearing from beneathe the black lacqur. He yelped and said "you might not like what I just discovered!" Bryan pointed out to me after looking through a magnifying glass upon the "inlaid picture of the Qin horse and carriage" and exclaimed "this is paper not wood -- you can see what is definitely signs of ink jet printed to appear as wood on paper".. Upon my inspection and re-inspection of all the similar type art on the instrument -- that I must conclude that in fact it is paper which is printed to look like wood.. It isn't even thin wood vaneer cut out, its just like paper cut out art glued onto the top and lacqured over!!
What does this mean? How could a reputable maker as this allow this to happen?
If you are curious about your SB's art work please I encourage you to take a good magnified look.
Look for the following:
Edges are not clean as if cut with dull blade; A very fine dimond patterning of dots in various shades of the same color (this stands out in areas where contrast is higher); Over lapping shades of dots as if printed by dot matrix printer attempts to blend together to create the look of a desired shade of color; The base board image of the Scarlet Bird emblem is also of paper cut with a thicker paper.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 26, 2005 9:45:48 GMT
Eek! OMFG! WTF is this... dunno what word to describe it!
TBH, I somehow had a suspicion about the art on the SB...
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Post by Bryan on Oct 26, 2005 10:26:03 GMT
Eu seriously nid to report tis!!!
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 26, 2005 10:43:37 GMT
Vi_an-san. Give us a few pics to let us see this!
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Post by carol on Oct 26, 2005 14:32:10 GMT
The horse cart never looks like wood to me. It looks more like painted directly on or on something and pressed on. It would be weried if its actually wood carving and applied with heavy glossy coat. I thought wood carving would be something sticks out.
It doesn't bother me any way. Actually, I prefer frame that's flat like the SB. Or mica inlaid or caligraphy. More songs now involve using the frame as percussion instrument, I don't want something that will hurt my hand.
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Post by carol on Oct 26, 2005 14:53:15 GMT
Or I should call it a wise budget allocation. They are allocating the budget in getting good whole piece of paulownia body and backboard, while others are spending more on the decorating design, and cut the cost by using thin layer sound board and plywood backboard.
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Post by Vi An on Oct 26, 2005 15:51:34 GMT
Carol,
Some very good points. However, discovering that they used paper with dot matrix print out of something to look like wood grains and color really starts to play games on your mind about the "value" of the instrument. If they pride themselves on all the other aspects of making this instrument they must also be careful with the delicate details also. Do they think they can just slip this in and no one would question it or notice???
Being that my boyfriend Bryan has worked in one of America's leading guitar makers "GUILD" guitars, he has seen the wonders of everything you can do with woods. With sharp mechanized blades running off of CAD (computer aided design) you can cut into wood every design or art work your heart desires and your imagination can come up with.. Thin pieces of wood, veneer are sold to makers in roll upon rolls for the purpose of decoration. So we suspect that this is what Scarlet Bird has done, they have rolls upon rolls of paper with the "Qin horse & cariage" and their characters printed by dot matrix printers all ready to be cut and pasted onto their instrument tops and bottoms!
I must add that the only reason I bring this up is because I definitely appreciate the high quality of instruments and I definitely pay very close attention to the detailed works. I admire instruments more closely than the "average" buyer because I must invest in these instruments and I must perform for a long long time with these instruments. So it matters to me. If I paid 10,000 worth of insurance for all my instruments and at the end of the day it was discovered that tiny details do not match up, I am in big trouble and I am going to be at a loss.
It is all very interesting. This teaches me a lesson. An instrument with no decorations at all is perhaps the more honest one. If I want decorations I'm just going to have to make them myself or commission a friend who can make it happen :-)
Keep well all and thank you for your comments,
Vi An
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 26, 2005 16:41:13 GMT
If I find that someone used paper for the inscription of my qin rather than carve it out by hand, I'd been slightly pissed off! Really, quality comes not only from sound but on workmanship. If they had stenciled, painted or whatever that involved a good deal of artistic effort, then I'd be fine with that. Paper cut from a printed design and just pasted on is hardly elegant or to good taste. Brings images of inferiority than good standard of great brands.
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Post by carol on Oct 26, 2005 17:25:24 GMT
Although I have never been to Xian factory myself, I have no doubt that they have rolls upon rolls of paper with the "Qin horse & cariage" and their characters. It never looked like anything "wood" to me from the first moment I saw it. They never claim its wood carving or anything. It's actually to my surprise that Vi An took it as wood carving. I guess its different appraoch for southern style and northern style. SB only labels their guzheng as #5, #6.... #10, not "Rosewood with Carving", "Zitan with mica inlaid"........
If one is looking for decoration, I think Jinyun has the best decorationg among all the guzheng companies. I would award them the "best decoration" title and take away all the "best making" titles. Jinyun is really detailed on everything decorative from inside out. Use bronze strings holes, velvet inside the side box. Also, they always find a piece with matching grains for the frames. The "S" shape wood piece surrounding the string holes always have nice stripe grains.......... If I want a piece of art work, I would definetely buy Jinyun's. Unfortunately, I am a guzheng player, so I sold my Jinyun zitan Mica for only half the price I paid after playing it for two years with no regrets. I really can't stand the lack of bass any more. I'd rather keep my ugly ones and sold the most beautiful one.
Well, I think it would be good if some day guzheng industry only sells "no decoration" guzhengs. Just like guqin. I never see any decoration on the top. There are only caligraphy signature engraved at the bottom. Or koto and kayagum has no decoration either. Then the makers can stop wasting time and money on decoration, and only the good sounding ones will stand out.
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Post by carol on Oct 26, 2005 17:48:21 GMT
Oh, I just remember something bad about Jinyun as well. That rosewood with bone carving model. It's actually made of plastic instead of bone. I got to find my old pictures of that plastic carving. So funny.
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Post by Vi An on Oct 26, 2005 20:20:51 GMT
Hi there Carol,
I didn't mistake it for wood carving. I have always come to expect that it would be so. As I said in my previous posts that it is possible to do fine and thin wood art in this day in age. It doesn't cross my mind imediately without inspection that it would be "paper" of all things!
Most of what decorations are called bone is a plastic or resin most likely. In guitar making even this littlest of detail is disclosed as "plastic".
I personally love the look of a beautiful piece of bare wood and lightly finished to bring out its subtle beauty in the light. No heavy coat of shine and no stains which hide the grain and pours of the wood. I really love the Scarlet Bird's frame inlay on the tops and sides of the instrument with the what appears to be mahogany sandwiched in between two fine lines of white. I love that detail so much. Also their end bone caps for the "S" curve and main bridge again with the thin line of hardwood between the bone piece. So elegant and classy! I see similar decorations on di-zi and erhu.
Charlie I wont beable to take a picture of this very fine discovery, the picture wouldn't show what my eyes can see. I'll do my best to try and capture it but it won't turn out.
Carol, that is soooo funny about the bone decoration that turned out to be plastic! That is the cherry on top of the cake!! *HAAHAAAhahahahaaaa*
v:.
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Post by Vi An on Oct 26, 2005 22:27:03 GMT
This is how I would prefer my guzhengs to look in the future. Just some fun ideas I painted. Vi An
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 27, 2005 10:30:43 GMT
Actually, some qins have a carving that juts out of the head of the qin. They are more to enhance the value. Of course, if a qin has a jade carving in the head, I'd expect it to be made of jade, finely carved with appropriate design, oval shaped or a thin delicate curved line, and be set into the head rather than simply glued on. I have a friend who has a qin like that (not a good qin) and it simply has a piece of subsitute jade rectangle stuck on to the head with glue, which makes it look more ugly than good. Mostly, some makers do this, but a majority don't coz not only does it make no difference to sound, it is another cost.
As for decoration on the whole qin, there is an antique qin in Japan that has the whole surface top and bottom painted with gold patterns. It's rather nice, I'll try and get a picture of it. Of course, unless the qin you make is very good, then decorating it like that will be a waste.
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Post by gili on Oct 27, 2005 12:47:24 GMT
Of any topic to enhance the understanding of guzheng, what does fussing over the horse and carriage of Scarlet Bird has to do with our understanding of music or the quality of guzheng making? The Horse and carriage is the trademark of Scarlet Bird. It is merely a logo. The profoundness of a guzheng does not come of one's logo alone.
Scarlet Bird sells their standard guzhengs without decorations as 'plain guzheng'. To erase Scarlet Bird's trademark from their guzheng with one's so-called Photoshop creativity is out right lack of respect for Scarlet Bird. It is to say that someone doesn't like the font of Steinway or the material of the sticker fairy lady of Dunhuang and erased it off the panel and ornate it with some gold and diamond. I would think it's rather tacky to propose some amateur work on a professional instrument.
Scarlet Bird has long boasted a traditional way of making guzhengs by hands. Common sense tells us that inkjet hot-pressed beneath lacquer is not feasible and perhaps impossible as of now. It looks more like an etched printing to me, but never would I think it looks like wood carved or something. I take the horse and carriage and Scarlet emblem as an added bonus to Scarlet Bird's signature trademarks. Take a look at Jinyun. They merely just have a sticker on the board. One can easily scrap the sticker off and call it some other brand. Perhaps Scarlet Bird embedded their logos and model numbers deep within to prevent look-alikes out there. Again, I take it as an added feature since these are Scarlet Bird's PLAIN guzhengs. The horse and carriage is not suppose to be decoration to begin with.
Talking about the lack of respect for some instrument. Dunhuang has long been known of their invention of the S-shape guzheng. To take Scarlet Bird's logo and trademark out of their guzhengs is to say to take the S-shape out of a Dunhuang guzheng. Imagine that?! S-shape guzheng has long been known to be invented because it yields a desired tone for the different octaves. Therefore, I would suggest simply respecting the trademark on Scarlet Bird guzhengs. After all, the purpose of a logo is for recognition, not to make the guzheng sound better. Those who sees the importance of allocating unnecessary money on the logo may end up buying a guzheng of lesser musical quality that may be better off being a piece of shelf display.
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Post by davidmdahl on Oct 27, 2005 15:05:55 GMT
Folks, let's please keep the discourse positive, without attacking or disrespecting one another. We are doing this for the fun of it, for learning about Chinese music and instruments. If any of us have differences of opinion, let us discuss them respectfully.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by carol on Oct 27, 2005 16:18:21 GMT
How can I add a picture? I really want to show that plastic carving. It's so funny.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 27, 2005 16:24:06 GMT
I think one is missing the point here. The argument is not about the logo, it is about how things are done.
To me, the lacqured over printed paper conjures up images of tackiness, what backstreet factories do to cut cost and time. No doubt that SB's instrument, sound quality and all are good. But I find SB's reputation should be beyond this unrefined method of sticking the logo or whatever you call it on their wares. I would expect the best from their methods.
But of course, this is only a minor blip in the scheme of all things. It bears no effect on the music. However, if someone found out about the stuff about, it is bound to raise a few eyebrows, wouldn't it?
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 27, 2005 16:28:04 GMT
How can I add a picture? I really want to show that plastic carving. It's so funny. link here [/img ] without any spaces. Use jpeg or gif.
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Post by carol on Oct 27, 2005 16:28:21 GMT
here it is: It's so funny! Well, I hate that one, not because of the plastic carving, but because of the cloudy blurring sound and the lack of bass 10 times worse than my Jinyun Zitan Mica.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 27, 2005 16:33:14 GMT
TBH it looks like plastic by just looking at it.
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Post by carol on Oct 27, 2005 16:34:09 GMT
Sorry, it looks too big. Sigh, even the wood grains look fake, too. Yanzhou companies have so much experience in creating fake stuffs. Maybe they got the ideas from their furniture industry.
I remember I bought several sets of Jinyun's 3-piece rosewood stands. The more expensive one is heavy and probably made of real rosewood, the cheaper one is really light, even though they both look the same. I guess that one uses only a paper skin of rosewood.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 27, 2005 16:39:26 GMT
Talking about fake stuff, I have a table (I won't name names) that was said to be made of rosewood or what not. Turns out it is some sort of plywood that has been painted over. I don't really object to it, coz it does it's job and I'm happy with it. The only thing I didn't like is that it was labled something which it obviously was not. Like false advertisement. Really, if it is 'imitation rosewood' then call it that and stop trying hide the fact like it's wrong and you're like trying to deceive. Really... when are people gonna be more mature in these things? There's nothing wrong with imitation stuff as long as you tell people about it.
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Post by carol on Oct 27, 2005 16:49:27 GMT
That's very true! I agree so much! I gave that plastic carving to a freind for free cause I hate it so much. I hate it so much that it's hard for me to say anything good about it when people wanted to buy it. I wasn't in guzheng business back then any way.
Now, I have to be really careful. But it's hard! Unless I visit every single factory, or I won't find out the bone is actually plastic after I've paid and received the instrument. It will be funny if I label it as "rosewood with plastic carving". Better stick to the makers I trust more.
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Post by davidmdahl on Oct 27, 2005 17:38:44 GMT
I would like to play "Devil's Advocate" a little on the plastic vs bone issue. I agree that natural materials such as bone and ivory have a lot more appeal. Plastic has this connotation of being cheap and tacky. However, plastic does have some good qualities, some of which are advantages over bone and ivory. For example, plastic is more durable and does not discolor, warp, or crack. Plastic comes in ranges of quality, and the way that it is used makes all the difference. Certain types of plastic can be turned or carved, and I tend to prefer this look to molded.
For some years now piano keys have been made of plastic. This is still somewhat controversial, and many pianists still prefer the look and feel of ivory. I admit that I do too. But over time, the plastic keys do wear better.
Several makers of Baroque flutes offer models made of "faux ivory", which is actually a plastic. These flutes are wonderful instruments and cost the same or more than wooden models. The material cost is apparently not much different than that for rare woods, and the labor can actually be more challenging.
So, I don't think that using plastics in the decoration of guzhengs is necessarily a bad thing. Whatever sort of decoration is used should be tastefully done, or it will detract from the enjoyment of the instrument. Better no decoration at all than something poorly done.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by Vi An on Oct 27, 2005 18:41:26 GMT
Thanks everyone for your response and insight I really enjoy the forum for the diverse and honest comments, please keep them coming!
David great points on plastic's credibility. All your points are true, my boyfriend knows this from working in the guitar factory that plastic if worked well has a life which is longer than bone, stones and ivory.. One must know how to work with plastic tastefully, you can't just make anything with plastic, much thought and creative ability is needed I would think, to carve plastic into something of a work of art. Take the Japanese koto bridges, they have a very special blend of resin (plastic) which mimics the density of ivory bridges. They look great and they sound warm on my koto. I borrowed my friend's ivory koto bridge set and sure the sound was brighter and sharper, but I prefer to actually hear the tone of the wood more!
Thank you,
Vi An
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