Very disheartening discovery today!

[Vi An]

gili said:

Of any topic to enhance the understanding of guzheng, what does fussing over the horse and carriage of Scarlet Bird has to do with our understanding of music or the quality of guzheng making? Fussing over the logo will not drive anyone to a deeper world of guzhengs. The Horse and carriage is the trademark of Scarlet Bird. It is merely a logo. The profoundness of a guzheng does not come of one's logo alone.

Scarlet Bird sells their standard guzhengs without decorations as 'plain guzheng'. To erase Scarlet Bird's trademark from their guzheng with one's so-called Photoshop creativity is out right lack of respect for Scarlet Bird. It is to say that someone doesn't like the font of Steinway or the material of the sticker fairy lady of Dunhuang and erased it off the panel and ornate it with some gold and diamond. I would think it's rather tacky to impose some amateur work on a professional instrument. At least I would think twice before posting a complaint like that. Whoever pointed it out simply have too much time in hand. Why not put the time in practice of music?

Scarlet Bird has long boosted a traditional way of making guzhengs by hands. Common sense tells us that inkjet hot-pressed beneath lacquer is not feasible and perhaps impossible as of now. It looks more like an etched printing to me, but never would I think it looks like wood carved or something. I take the horse and carriage and Scarlet emblem as an added bonus to Scarlet Bird's signature trademarks. Take a look at Jinyun. They merely just have a sticker on the board. One can easily scrap the sticker off and call it some other brand. Perhaps Scarlet Bird embedded their logos and model numbers deep within to prevent look-alikes out there. Again, I take it as an added feature.

Talking about the lack of respect for some instrument. Dunhuang has long been known of their invention of the S-shape guzheng. To take Scarlet Bird's logo and trademark out of their guzhengs is to say to take the S-shape out of a Dunhuang guzheng. Imagine that?! S-shape guzheng has long been known to be invented because it yields a desired tone for the different octaves. Therefore, I would suggest simply respecting the trademark on Scarlet Bird guzhengs. After all, the purpose of a logo is for recognition, not to make the guzheng sound better. Those who sees the importance of allocating unnecessary money on the logo may end up buying a guzheng of lesser musical quality that may be better off being a piece of shelve display.

First if you have something constructive to add I wholeheartedly invite you to contribute. However I believe you have not read this thread thoroughly to interject what you have above. There is no need to attact or flair up with defensiveness. This is a public forum and everyone has freedom of expression and sharing their ideas no matter how "amature"..

In regards to my discovery of the dot matrix print on paper logo again:

Pointing this minor detail out does bring up questions on the overall guzheng making standards which the makers
practices. If they think they can cut corners here, where else have they??

This 26 stringed special Scarlet Bird instrument to me -- is soooooooooo close to perfection in feel and sound and everything; that I can't help to be curious (in a joyful way) that one day with the right ray of sunlight casted upon the tail area, I was able to discover this little lack of detail on their part!

With your comment on "too much time on hands":

I do have a plenty time on my hands, I work for myself and I am an independent recording artist and impromptu musician. I have a lot of time which I dedicate to admiring my instruments visually and musically. Eight long years now after graduating from highschool in 1997, I have dedicated my time, my life -- to continuously self teaching and practicing and performing professionally with guzheng. Cultivating patience and discovering new techniques all the time. This and more have helped me to further appreciate the diverse and beautiful voice of the guzheng. From the age of 8 - 18 I have been taking my own time outside of school to research to death, the indepth history of the guzheng at the public library from 4 oclock after shool till 9pm most evenings. However, the lack of indepth information I was able to find back then didn't stop me; I kept on searching for more in order to feed my hunger for guzheng. Until recently with the age of technology and the internet and public forums like this at a rise, I am able to know far more than ever before! I renew my love for the guzheng each and every moment of my life. At night after I have practiced, I usually end up falling asleep beside my guzheng with my finger picks still attached to my fingers!

Please tell me if I need to concentrate more on practicing music than the small details mentioned above?? I think quite frankly if I practice any more, I will have to change my music lable from "Vi An is Vi An" to "Vi An is Imortal". *Laughs out loud*.

Please -- in the future know who you are attacking before you start typing.

For your first ever posting on here you have surely turned some heads, keep it up in a positive way and you will be respected but keep up with the agressive and disrespectful tone and your ego will be slammed face down onto the ground.

Joyful tuning,

Vi An

[carol]

I think after all, Chinese instruments are "Made in China" that has the same characteristics just like anything else made in China. Low price, low quality and low technology!

It maybe a special case on guqin because the price on qin is much higher that enable the maker to spend a whole year just to make one good qin. He has the budget to throw away all the bad ones.

We can also see low priced guqins with low quality and less detailed from the factories that also make guzhengs.

Back to Scarlet Bird, I really don't see anything wrong with their symbol. That same symbol is beared on their lowest model #5 as well. And what's the price of #5? Not even enough to cover the cost of paulownia. Where is the extra budget for hand carved wood symbol?

I am curious to check the symbols on "Steinway" or "Yamaha" to see if they are hand carved wood pieces inlaid inside the piano lacquere. Even if they are, the Chinese made "Pearl River" piano isn't. (Their Los Angeles warehouse is just right next to my warehouse.)

I get more mad for things labeled with "jade" or "bone" and turn out to be not. I also got mad at a maker who sent me a bunch of "3-piece rosewood stands", which turned out to be black painted plywood. I had to take the word "rosewood" down from my website.

After all, these don't bother me too much. I value the sound quality a lot more then anything else. An instrument will make me mad only if it doesn't sound good.

I know if the American or the Japanese are making guzheng using the advanced technology, they will sound much better and detailed. But how can I afford one? Look at the price of koto, a descent good one costs at least $5000. And the piano, even upright steinway is like $8000. Even guitar, my guitarist friend told me a good one costs around $3000.

I am kind of appreciate the low price on guzheng. This enable me to custom make and try different stuffs without worrying too much about my budget. My newest project will be a guzheng made with quartersawn paulownia top board and spruce(shanmu) bottom board. I want something harder in the bottom so the sound will be more concentrated. Guzheng has a big sound box, and the lack of concentration is always the problem. I figure spruce is harder than the paulownia, and will serve better as a bottom board. With the low price in this instrument compare to other instruments, I will put more tolerance on any decorative stuffs, and ask them to focus all their budget on the sound boards. I also have to take chance, since I'm not paying enough to cover the cost of making 10 pieces for them to throw away the 9 bad ones and send me the only good one.

[gili]

vee said:

For your first ever posting on here you have surely turned some heads, keep it up in a positive way and you will be respected but keep up with the agressive and disrespectful tone and your ego will be slammed face down onto the ground.

You have mistaken. It is not myself that I am interested in. I have written to express respect for the guzheng makers and to show appreciation of their products. Without these master guzheng makers, I wouldn't have experienced the joy of guzheng music. How can I even start to complain about the symbol of their creations. Paper-cut artwork is also a long traditional Chinese art in itself. It in more unique than the ubiquitous wood carving in most guzhengs.

A thousand dollars for a Chinese musical instrument is nothing if you're talking about a western instrument. Chinese workers have long been exploited for cheap labors. Yet, we're still asking for a cheaper price. Alternatively, we can pay 10 times or even 100 times the price, then we'll have something more satisfying. That day will come, given that the Chinese economy is developing. Quality will continually improve, but consumers will pay a high price. As the yuan appreciates, we would ache from within to pay more.

[Vi An]

Thank you gili for your clarification and regard for luthiers. I have utmost respect for artisans of fine instruments as the guzheng. The international community must help them to earn their fair share and respect in the world of making fine musical instruments. We buy their works and expect quality, this helps everyone out. Consumers asking questions and makers disclosing information freely has always been around in the international markets.

[davidmdahl]

carol said:

I am curious to check the symbols on "Steinway" or "Yamaha" to see if they are hand carved wood pieces inlaid inside the piano lacquere. Even if they are, the Chinese made "Pearl River" piano isn't. (Their Los Angeles warehouse is just right next to my warehouse.)

The manufacturer logos on the fallboard for pianos in general are either decals or stencils. It is unusual for a piano to be otherwise decorated, although there are special editions from time to time. I prefer the look of beautiful wood, or black, without a horse and cart. <g>

Best wishes,

David

[YouLanFengChune]

Actually guys, the wood verification system is rather advanced, if you wish to be sure.

Being an undergrad in National Unisversity, i asked by friends and profs in botany and material studies to verify wood compounds. Its by far the best ways of verifying. Never the less, let us keep in mind that we are buying instruments, and even plywood guzhengs can sound professional. The problem is how long that sound will last.

[YouLanFengChune]

By the way, the ONLY way of making high quality instruments is to pay for them. A high quality guqin takes 9 months to make. A high quiality erhu takes 2 weeks to fully cure and dry the skin.

If we are going to pay the artisans dirt, they can't keep themselves up and we cannot expect them to put in effort.
When i pay 10 times the bamboo cost price for the choiciest bamboo, the material stores in hangzhou are willing to have me pick only 100 pieces from 200000 pieces, and (serve me tea, coffee and lunch). This ensures highest only quality.

When you are willing to pay for the choicest of skin on erhu, you tend to be able to slect the best parts for the erhu you have.

You are not expected to pay through your nose as well. So long as you remember the purpose of purchase, like learning or performance, and it can fulfill its primary need, its a decent instrument.

Just a point to note. The snake skin market in China has fully collaspsed. The pre-2005 illegal trade from Vietnam and Burma has fallen through, and the poor guy is jailed for 11 years in Shanghai. Cadenza now supplies a few skins weekly legally using the CITES license, hich David has seen with his erhu. Prices has risen up to 9 times, and good skin is getting rare. I'm having trouble myself, needing to compete with Prada and Chanel and Armani for skins....

[gili]

Regarding the horse and carriage image, one has to see it in person. The design of the horse and carriage is one story. The technique is another. How it is done is not tacky in my opinion. The result is actually very sleek. I would say the Scarlet Bird is the sleekest and cleanest guzheng in China. Furthermore, the background of the black shows hint of wood grains because the black is a layer of stain and then lacquer to seal the wood.

For other guzhengs, there are obvious reasons why plywood may be used. First of all, it's not part of the soundbox. Plywood can be structural very stable, and much more stable than a full piece of wood since the problem or warping or twisting may be minimalized. Of course, plywood could potentially be less costly too. However, this is probably not the only reason why plywood is used.

[carol]

YouLanFengChune reminds me a story. When I was in Beijing last month attending the guzheng seminar, people there were surprised by the quality of tortoise picks I'm using. All my 8 picks are similar sized and same thickness. So, they asked me are those custom-made? Do they cost at least a few hundred yuans?

I told them, it's easy. I simply bought 20 sets and picked 8 picks with my desired thickness and size from those 20 sets.

Just a note here, most made-in-china tortoise pick sets have no quality control at all. In one set, you find one pick that's way too thick, and the other is way too thin.