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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 3, 2005 9:42:30 GMT
Yesterday's London Yaji, John Thompson was there. His Wang Peng silk-string qin was amazingly good. It was louder than your average silk string qin. He had the 'jiazhong' Taiko strings on them.
Also I heard that Fred Wong said he stopped making Taiko strings from 2004, so there is a limited supply. Also, John said that the first batch was better than the present batch because they were longer and the outer wrapping of strings 1-4 was more secure than the latewr batch. I found that the outer wrapping John's strings at the plucking point of stgs 1-4 were worn out and you can see the inner core showing. But it is still playable as the outer wrapping was firmly attatched to the core, probably from the glue use to repair the strings. He complained that the jiazhong strings were too short, meaning you can only use them twice more after breaking before it must be replaced.
As far as I'm concerned, if you want Taiko strings, you'd better buy a stock soon before they run out. Because I do not know whether Fred Wong or someone else might take on the duty of producing quality silk strings in the future.
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Oct 3, 2005 16:05:00 GMT
its not true i should have regular supply, though its so said to stamp out piracy. The price will jump a it though
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 3, 2005 18:27:04 GMT
Well, whether he makes them or his factory makes them, I not know. But I know that the quality of the strings has slipped a notch slightly.
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Post by blueharp on Oct 4, 2005 21:22:44 GMT
I for one certainly hope that Mr. Wong has a "factory" producing his strings.
The wrapping on strings 3 and especially 4 have come loose, something that Mr. Wong told me is an issue with silk strings. However a quick coating with the "string glue" and they are as good a new.
My 4 string has broken 3 times and is now too short to be of use. I am using a 3 string from my Hu-qiu set as a temporary replacement. I works OK but is nowhere near as smooth as the Taiko.
All-in-all if the only things that make the Taiko strings lower quality are:
1. the wrapping coming loose (easily solved)
2. the length of the wrapping (more of a problem, but if the strings are readily available not a problem at all)
then they are still a fine string.
It is my dearest hope that the strings will continue to be available as they have a superb tone.
Steve
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 5, 2005 10:01:35 GMT
Those are the problems that John Thompson indicated. But as you said, if there was a steady supply then it won't be much a problem.
The reason why string four breaks so much is because the core is often the same thickness as string seven to not make it overly thick when being wrapped by the coiling thread. I'd advise to not attack to deeply on string four to make it last just a little bit longer.
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Post by blueharp on Oct 27, 2005 7:37:27 GMT
I was very gratified to get a lovely present from Hong Kong in the mail today. A partial set of Taigu Jiazhong strings! ;D The set contains: 2 String Number 7 1 String Number 6 1 String Number 4 1 container of Taigu String Glue (zhi yin) This bodes well for the availability of high quality silk strings! We who play guqin are extremely fortunate to have a man such as Mr. Wong among us! He has undertaken the thankless task of providing high quality strings for an obscure instrument. To make matters more difficult most of those that play don't even use silk strings, preferring the less troublesome metal/nylon hybrid strings. This may not make much sense but when I play my qin strung with silk, I get the sensation that I am touching great antiquity. Silk strings also require more attention than their modern counterparts, making the qin experience much more intimate and personal. I am very grateful to Mr. Wong Shu Chee for his dedication and kindness.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 27, 2005 10:19:19 GMT
If I ever get a new qin, I'll play it with metal/nylon for a month then silk for a month and choose which is best to keep!
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Post by carol on May 17, 2006 16:04:04 GMT
Any body tried kayagum strings on guqin? I just found my kayagum's silk strings don't easily break, so might be suitable for guqin.
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 17, 2006 16:32:41 GMT
Might not be as qin silk strings are different in structure. First there's thickness, then there's the coil wrapping around the four thicker strings, and the issue of smoothness (kayagum strings are not made for sliding on).
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Post by carol on May 17, 2006 18:28:51 GMT
I see. What's the difference in structure?
I tried Huqiu silk strings before, and they are so fragile. I broke 2 strings immediately after put them on. Then I figure I couldn't possibly tie them to the same key as the nylon strings, and I had to loose the strings to lower key to avoid further breaking. then it doesn't sound as good any more.
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 17, 2006 18:51:05 GMT
Huqin strings are standard quality. Good quality ones can survive nylon tuning (though they will break easily). You really don't need to tune too high with silk. But, if you wanna try kayagum strings on the qin, feel free to do so. For me, it is like using cello strings to string a violin...
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Post by blueharp on May 18, 2006 2:32:34 GMT
I haven't found the silk strings to be incredibly fragile, just picky. In fact a number of the historical recordings of guqin that use silk strings are tuned to the standard pitch or in some cases even higher!
Whenever a string has broken there is a specific condition that exists before it happens. The string has stretched (its pitch has dropped considerably) and the rong-kou is twisted tightly pulling the yuan-bao jie toward the base of the yue-shan. This seems to stress the string at that point and it breaks.
I rarely have any problems if the rong-kou is quite long and the yuan-bao jie is quite close to the playing side of the yue-shan (a millimeter or two). What this means is re-fastening the strings daily for 3 or 4 days until they stabilize. This is noted very clearly in the Meian qin-pu:
"Whenever new strings are first adjusted [mounted on the instrument], the pitches change easily; therefore, one must adjust them again, then they will become stable"
Huqiu strings are also rather thick. They will work at the regular pitch, but if necessary lower everything a half-step or so (IE string 1 to B or Bb). The Taigu (Taiko) strings are thinner overall so they work extremely well at the standard pitch.
I have not seen kayagum strings, however I though they were all twisted silk with no over spinning. They could be quite rough when sliding on strings 1-4, but you never know!
Give the kayagum strings a shot and let us know how they work for you.
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Post by davidbadagnani on May 18, 2006 3:36:43 GMT
In our Thai Music Ensemble here, we always use silk strings on the fiddles (thin ones for the saw duang and thick ones for the saw ou and saw sam sai). (The saw duang is high pitched, like a gaohu; the saw ou is a coconut fiddle like a yehu, and the saw sam sai is a spike fiddle with three strings.) The saw duang's thin strings are the ones that have the greatest tendency to break while playing, but it doesn't happen too often. Jane Lanctot and Bun Loeung of Minnesota's "Light from Heaven" Cambodian group uses some sort of white nylon cord for their coconut fiddle and I think metal for the higher fiddles, so I guess some Cambodian players have gotten away from the use of silk. But the Thai definitely use it all the time.
If you want silk strings for use on fiddles, I'd recommend getting them from Thailand if it proves difficult getting them from China, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. At Harmony Music in Toronto when I visited several years ago they had lengths of silk string in coils, in various thicknesses, that they would cut to order, mainly for use on the sanxian. Some players prefer silk strings for their sanxian over nylon-wrapped metal, they said.
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Post by blueharp on May 18, 2006 7:02:32 GMT
Hi Carol! I forgot to ask if you are using the traditional method for attaching the strings or the tuning block attached to the feet. It has been my experience that the pins in the tuning block cut right through the strings - especially if the edges of the holes haven't been filed down. You can take a needle file (from a hobby shop) and round off the edges. Stephen Dydo makes a tuning block utilizing violin pegs that is supposed to work very well with silk strings. Courtesy of Jim Binkley's site: web.cecs.pdx.edu/~jrb/chin/index.htmlIf you really want to use silk strings the best way to mount them is using the traditional method. It is a bit more work and requires practice, but it works.
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 18, 2006 8:30:46 GMT
I forgot to ask about whether Carol uses the traditional method or not (should have asked which part of the string broke)! Yes, the new tuning device kills silk strings very easily. Best to string it using traditional method.
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Post by carol on May 18, 2006 16:00:27 GMT
hahaha, yeah, I was using the new tuning device on the old Long Feng I had. I think the 4th and 7th strings broke 5 minutes after I put them on. Then I changed new ones, but didn't dare to make those so tight. I remembered both broke at the far left end where strings go to the back.
It's weired, I feel the Huqiu strings are more rough the kayagum strings. Maybe I remembered it wrong. It was a few years ago before I even put my hands on kayagum.
I'm going to try kayagum strings on my Zhen Chengwei's guqin and see. Now, the only problem is, it's tuned in traditional method, which I have difficulty in stringing it.
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 18, 2006 16:49:38 GMT
If you use silk, you must string traditionally. No doubt about it. One point to note, I don't think ZCW's qins are suitable for silk, as the bridge is lower, therefore more likely to have buzzing sounds.
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Post by carol on May 18, 2006 20:26:46 GMT
Ah, I see. Maybe I should get some qin that's suitable for silk then. Who's qin is better for silk strings? Would Long Feng's be ok? Since I don't want to dig another big hole into my pocket after I bought a few custom-made guzhengs.
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Post by blueharp on May 18, 2006 21:06:35 GMT
Aha! Those tuning thingys are bad news for silk strings. I would recommend getting the one made by Steve Dydo specifically for silk strings if you want to use one.
It is possible to use silk strings on your Zeng Chengwei instrument even though it has a low bridge. John Thompson has one set up that way. The only way to find out is to try.
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 19, 2006 9:12:42 GMT
Well, I suppose you can on ZCW. Try it out and see.
The only qins made specifically for silk are Wang Peng's qins, but they cost a bomb! only buy qins from him if you are serious in the qin arts.
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Post by Si on May 22, 2006 13:35:03 GMT
what makes a good silk string gu qin?
and is it possible to buy a qin that can be used with metal or silk strings later if one decides?
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 22, 2006 14:02:05 GMT
According to Wang Peng, the differences between silk and metal-nylon qins are:
1. Wood for metal string qins can be thicker than that for silk string qins 2. The top surface of a metal string qin should be a bit flatter than that for a silk string qin 3. The shape of the sound box is somewhat different
Basically, all qins made before the 1950s are suitable for silk. All after are mostly for metal-nylon (unless it is a Wang Peng qin). You really have to select the best silk strings for your qin (remember the three gauges of thickness that are for different qin specs).
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 28, 2006 9:12:53 GMT
Oh, I spoke to Fred Wong yesterday at the London yaji! He gave a long talk about silk strings and the whole process he went through to make the taiko strings. Blood and sweat! I only understood bits of it as he spoke mandarin (he can speak cantonese and english).
I'll point out the important info I mangaed to prise out:
1. When applying the 'string gum' on the strings, you should so the whole playing length of the string and not just the bit where it needs patching up. 2. Do not use the new tuning device on silk strings. Never ever ever! You should string traditionally, and you must wrap on the goose feet very quickly (I think he said he uses his bare hands without a cloth...) 3. You do not need to tune it to 'standard' tuning (i.e. 5th string at A, etc) as there is no standard. It must be tuned in accordance with the qin you have. Tune it to the point it sounds good, then that is the pitch you keep. 4. When playing with silk strings, you must pluck lightly and not like the way you play metal-nylon. If you play like m-n, then the strings will buzz and slap on the surface. This also stops it from breaking often. It must be played gently. 5. The bridge should not be too high, the inner edge of the bridge should not be too sharp, and the knot should be in the center and not too much to the right edge. it will break more easier if it is. 6. The Huqiu strings are not good. They break very easily and the quality does not match the Taigu ones which can be strung to higher tension. It is the reason why may people turned to m-n strings because Huqiu couldn't meet the high standard of previous dynasties. But as soon as the Taigu ones came out, almost all players in Taiwan switched back to silk! The mainland didn't because the main players (e.g. LXT, GY, etc) still advocated m-n. 7. When you finished playing, always loosen strings 5 to 7. This will avoid them breaking. 8. Always hang your qin up vertically. This stops it from warping. 9. Some qins are more suitable for silk, mostly antique qins. 10. The vacum packing allows you to keep the strings fresh for over a century! You really need five sets to last a life time! 11. 4th strings is second string to break because its core is the same as the thickness of the 7th string. 12. Buy the gauge that suits your qin, then only buy that gauge, otherwise you'll have to buy multiple sets (you mustn't mix zhongqing strings with jiazhong strings, etc).
Those are the main points you should know when using silk.
He talked a lot about the difficult process of making them as well. He had to gather a lot people in the know and had to do research on making the strings (a lot of research). One of the main difficulties is getting the best quality silk. The best is AAAAAA and it costs a bomb in some countries. I think he went to Canada because good quality silk was cheaper there! Also, it is difficult to keep consistancy in the batch as the quality is sometimes mixed. The next difficulty is manufacture, half is done by hand and half is done by machine. Then there is the element of the weather as well! Third is quality as it is difficult to get the thicknesses of strings 1 and 7 adequate so 7 won't break and 1 won't be too coarse.
At first he gave out his silk strings to promote them and make people try them out and hopefully use them. At the end of the day, it has to make some money or it won't be worthwhile anymore! So he hopes many people will used or switch to silk strings. Then there will be an adequate market and demand, then more silk string makers would emerge and try to get a better quality string so that there will be more study and reasearch, therefore, resulting in even better quality strings. He said that some players don't like m-n because it cannot replace the distinctive sound of silk, so they continue to use them. They consider m-n to be 'bu gaoya' (not high elegance). To Fred Wong, m-n is for concerts and stuff like that, but if you are not a pro who continuously do gigs like such, then you really should use silk.
For me, I think that if you can play well on silk, then you are a better player/person coz it is hard to get a good sound out of silk strings. If you can play good on m-n and good on silk, then you are playing well, as for silk, you need to be extra relaxed and smooth on your playing. Silk strings can highlight your weaknesses in playing (namely, plucking too hard, wrong angle, etc).
I also heard some ancedotes about Wu Wenguang's (and to a lesser extent, Wu Jinglue) playing style. Since he is trained in Western music which tends for the musician to devote their life and soul to the instrument (i.e. play like your like depended on it), his playing is very lively and vivid. But Fred said that you easily get health problems by doing this continuiosly, you get RSI, etc. He exampled this by describing a DVD which WWG made himself in an amateur sort-of way where he played like if it was his last performance. Understandably, he said that was the last time he will every play like that, to the brink! For normal qin players, such is too excessive and is not really the Chinese idea of what music is about. Of course, this contrasts different sides of qin study, or what the qin is capable of.
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Post by blueharp on May 28, 2006 9:47:45 GMT
Thanks for sharing!
I take it that Mr. Wong is going to continue making the Taiko brand strings.
Did he happen to mention anything about it?
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 28, 2006 9:51:09 GMT
I don't think he did (or I didn't heard him say so). I imagine he wants to, but needs support from the qin community by buying his strings!
Also, at the end of the talk, he and his wife both played a piece. His wife played a melody which she didn't name on Fred's (silk string) antique qin. I think he said it survived a fire (I could see some fire scars). Had a nice finish to the qin as well, smooth but not glossy. Fred then played "Yuqiao Wenda" [Dialogue Between Fisherman and Woodcutter] on Dannong's Qing dynasty qin (also silk). He said it had a nice sound, to the delight of Dan! Afterwards, there was no time for other players to play, but some tested out the qins.
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