Artistic levels

[SCWGuqin]

OK all, I know *ultimately* labels like "classical" vs. "folk" or "popular" are going to be vacuous, but I'm very interested in the question of what constitutes 'classicism' in particular arts. I've grappled with this question in guqin for years, and continue to be hampered by the fact that Chinese music has nowhere near the amount of formal theory you see in India, the Middle East, or the West. Since I tend to prize some ideal of 'classicism' in my own playing, AND since some of my musical preferences are not the same as those of leading qin masters, I've gone through several paradigms in trying to understand what is uniquely 'refined' or 'significant' about qin music.

This is not the place for reflections on that. However, I want to ask everyone what they think of 'lighter' vs. 'heavier' guqin music. Does it make sense to draw this distinction? I would consider 'lighter' pieces that are *generally* shorter, simpler, and have less complex ideas behind them. The transcribed folk tunes that populate the lower ranks of the official syllabus, for instance, would epitomize light music for guqin. Pieces like Yu Ge, Guangling San, and Xiao Xiang Shui Yun would define the other end of the spectrum.

I talk about 'uniquely significant' aspects of qin music. I'm always thinking about these because I have an intense love for many classical systems, and sometimes wonder why my chief love is for qin when other systems in the world seem 'superior' in assorted respects. If the qin is to match traditions represented by the likes of L. Subramaniam, Z. M. Dagar, Munir Bashir, and Guillaume Dufay, what exactly are its strengths? I have many ideas, but again, another time. I think it is uncontroversial that these 'unique strengths' will come in two categories: (1) techniques of performance that can be applied to any piece, and (2) particular pieces themselves that exemplify these strengths.

Does it make sense to create some kind of hierarchy for (2)? Should we really consider Guan Shan Yue, for instance, 'classical' in the same sense as Ping Sha Luo Yan? And if not, why then should qin players bother with GSY when there are deeper and more important pieces to attend to?

Note that I don't believe everything I've said in this post, and am just throwing some things out there to see what people think.

[Charlie Huang]

I see you haven't changed since we last met! LOL!

Anyways, I think this suggested labeling of pieces as 'classical' or not is not much help. Mostly, qin music is deemed 'traditional' more than 'classical'. Qin music is refined because it focuses mainly on this-worldly matters, direct matters at the heart of the player and the listener. Just like other forms of Chinese music, it doesn't bother much with music theory (we've been though all that, now let's put that to the side). So, now, musicians concerntrate on making music rather than bother with what is seen as a formality. For qin, although I read the qinpu's discussion of music theory, they don't seem a requirement to play good qin music. Playing good qin music is about creating beautiful sound, about producing a melody that is naturally structured rather than artificially structured. You will have noticed that qin music changes tempo and rhythm throughout a piece, and I've heard composers be puzzled by this. The main thing is that if qin music was artificially structured, then the music will become rather boring to hear. I've tried to play Yangguan Sandie by playing it in an artificially structured way and it sounds dead after the first few notes. That's what is very perculiar about qin music, it doesn't try to force itself into a cakemould which it cannot fit in. If you've read Xishan Qinkuang, you'll read about the qin players theoretical take on the sound of qin music that has a high standard of thought. Western music tends to focus too much on structure, whilst Chinese (qin) music focuses on the freedom defined by the instrument. That's why pieces like Liu Shui can achieve the sound of running water, it can achieved sounds of nature as well as sounds of emotion, like Li Sao or XXSY. And it is the emotion that is required in qin music that makes it alive. I've seen Zeng Chengwei play and you can see he carries the music into a transcendant form, not restrained, not show-offy, just flowing like a river or stream. That said, technique was of importance to carry that emotion, and the pieces he plays that enable him to carry out this intention. And of course you can rate GSY with PSLY coz they both exemplify different moods and emotion, like comparing salt with sugar. Though, GSY has been played to death that I can't stand playing it unless I either sing with it, play it with xiao or play it very well that is enough to please me. And I think GSY is a beginners piece (probably composed with that in mind). Qiufeng Ci on the other hand has more emotion in it than GSY, and I like that very much coz there's nothing fancy in it to make me have to think about how to play certain bits. It just flows our of the hands without having to think, and when you sing to it, its intention is amplified more.

I might have waffled on a bit there coz I wrote that all in one go, but I hope it answers some of your questions.

[Si]

Well i would have thought that if Indian Ragas can be (is) considered "Classical" music that the only thing I can think of from the Chinese world would be qin music.

But as we all know indian and western classical are totally diferent so using the term classical is a bit of a problem.

Maybe if you change the word Classical for "tradition" it might help, since western classical is just one chapter in a whole millenium of developing styles.

I suppose all traditions of music will have lighter and heavier music and probably the man on the street of India did not really underatand ragas 300 years ago in just the same way that a cotton worker in Leeds 300 years ago would not understand what went into a classical symphony. Same for qin as it seems to have been more of a scholars instrument. I read somewhere that most scholars only played a few pieces - maybe they just focused on the simple stuff.

Oh I am no musicologist, i think this debate probably has not point but its interesting and thats what forums are for........

Next person please.....................

[SCWGuqin]

Thanks for the replies -- usually when I start talking like this I need some combination of information and 'comforting'

GSY is actually the piece that inspired me to start this thread. Anyone know why it is, as CCC mentions, played to death? I also agree that QFC has more feeling in it.

Shifting gears slightly, what does everyone experience as 'frustrations' in qin play? My #1 frustration is lack of technical ability; #2 is, basically, what I've been talking about here: disconnect with many pieces that people like.

I'm sure everyone can understand #1. Regarding #2, often I'm impatient with what I'll call "feel-good" pieces. A lot of famous pieces like Yi Guren, Yangguan San Die, Guan Shan Yue, and Changmen Yuan, express feelings of pain and yearning, specifically for a person/lover/justice--what my personality usually dubs 'petty concerns'. It's not that these feelings aren't beautiful or important, it's just that I almost never feel them, and am much more abstract/impersonal/mystical.


So, I would just go on and do abstract/impersonal/mystical pieces, except that every player in the world plays and speaks highly of the more 'emotional' ones. I sometimes wonder whether they really identify with these pieces, or if it's just force of habit or tradition to continuously identify them as important.

Regarding 'emotional' qin pieces, I have a specific problem in the comparative classical setting I mentioned in my first post. In expressing loss, hope, resentment, etc., my general experience is that other classical systems are *much* more effective at communicating these, because they use heptatonic scales and a lyrical song-like texture. Does anyone find themselves wishing that qin music weren't so 'balanced, restrained' all the time? It is perhaps because I feel that qin music *cannot* be as emotional as other musics that I prefer to focus on its more abstract/impersonal/mystical aspects.

OK, I'm done huffing and puffing now.

[Si]

Well er hu music does have a lot of feeling and thats following the usual chinese scales!

[Charlie Huang]

Those 'emotional' pieces that you mention (YGSD, YGR, CMY, etc) I hardly play anymore, coz I sometimes lose interest in those easily. Maybe I'm of a "been there, done that" attitude, as I've been through those emotions highlighted in those pieces. The pieces I like to play are mostly those like the GL version of PSLY and ZCW's Liu Shui and Kongzi Duyi that he taught me, etc. I think qin music can be deeply emotion; I like XXSY and Li Sao. I look pass any showy-offy aspects of them.

I'd say my current frustration is trying to get a better qin! My abilities surpass my current qin's capabilities. I've played a ZCW qin which was better than my current one and if I had one, I'll know I will improve my technique drastically, coz my current qin has string resistance, causing me to tense up and pluck harder than I really should. I need to be more relaxed, and that can only happen when I get a qin like ZCW's or Li Mingzhong, etc.

[Si]

Oh thats interesting, I just assumed (CCC) that you would want a new qin cos the sound was not too good.

Is string resistance releated to the tightness of the string?

By the way how long have you been playing qin, who taught you and where did you learn - since you are God of this forum thought I might ask.......

[Si]

Whats GSY? and what level is it?

[Charlie Huang]

GSY = Guanshan Yue.

String resistance can be related to tightness / tension of the string, but it can also mean that the yueshan is a tad too high, thus, further away from the surface making it difficult to press the string down, thus needing to apply more pressure to keep it down. My qin is like that, even though ZCW had the yueshan planed down a bit, it is better but still energy intensive. Other than that, everything is fine with my qin. I treat it as a beginners instrument, so I want one like ZCW's that are easier to play, so I can relax more.

As for my experience, I've three years experience on qin, which is mostly self taught, etc etc. I do a bit of qin xiao and pipa.