tang dynasty music

[calden]

Hey all:

I've got only a passing appreciation of the different historical styles of traditional Chinese music. I especially like Tang dynasty history, and figure that would be a good place for me to start.

Can anyone recommend a good CD or two which focuses on the melodies, arrangements, and instruments of Tang dynasty China?

Thanks much,
Carlos

[gubaba]

I have a few items that I have found that may suit you or may point you elsewhere

CCN has an Erhu book #303023t that is a collection of "ancient poems and songs". I like many of the pieces though one in particular reminds me of a hymm I have heard.

There are some CD's of poems set to music that I got off of ebay.

The best I can do is give you the numbers for the first; ISRC CN-E08-04-0093-0/a. Nice music but I think that the poems are set to modern music. The above erhu book may be the same sort of thing.

The second is a 4 disc set "Singing the Poems of Tang Dynasty"
ISBN 957-99598-1-1. Again the music seems modern or are modern arrangments of older pieces.

I have seen similar items available from www.chinasprout.com.

I would also have to think that the guqin guys should be able to direct you to some of their older pieces. Some of the guzheng pieces may date from that period.

[Si]

When I was in Beijing a few years ago and I found a treasure.

I think its an 8 cd set of all the major chinese dynasties music.

I an in office now so I dont know the details but i tell you its the best intro to the styles I have ever seen. Naturally the older cds are more interesting from a Gu qin perspective.

There are some songs (on the tang dynasty one) and i confess that I skip them - Im sorry I cant hack the singing.

I will post the details tonight for you - but i have never seem them since my trip to beijing

((((Its not as bad as the cd they play in the local japanese supermarket - it sounds like a drunken out of tune maniac singing along to a sanxian or koto - it makes me feel violent with hate that i have to listen to such discordant sounds whilst shopping - surely if tescos played this their market share would plumet))))

[Si]

For all of you that have been waiting with bated breath i give you the info of the cds on the chinese dynasties:-

CCD-98/20 to CCD-98/25

Its on the CRC label (china record corp.) 1998

All the titles are in chinese but from the dates that they give - can guess the the dynasties are:

tang, ming, sung, ching, yuan, and the last too are taxing my chinese history knowledge but one is 770-580BC so it might be waring states or shang or spring summer maybe (just a guess) the other is maybe xia (its 618-907 AD).

Im sure some book worm will correct me but its more fun to guess than get up and look at a book.

[calden]

Thanks!!!!!

Carlos

[calden]

Hey syburn:

Do you have titles for those discs? I can't find them by number. I see that several different music download sources have CRC titles but not listed by number.....

Thanks,
Carlos

[kyokuhon]

Hi,
I bought one of those "dynasty" discs on ebay awhile ago. I believe they're straightforward in stating that the music is all modern interpretations of Tang texts and some Tang melodies.

This of course raises the question of what constitutes "authentic" (to use the term used by European Early Music enthusiasts) performance of ancient music. In a nutshell, that view is that one should come as close as possible to making the music sound as it would have in the "target" time period.

The opposing view is that the musicians of the Tang dynasty (or whatever time period you like) would have used all of the musical resources at their disposal, and we should do the same. For those conversant with the idiom, it's the "Bach would have used the piano if he had one" argument.

For information on HIP (Historically Informed Performance-the former school) check out what Rembrandt Wolpert and Elizabeth Markham are doing at the U. of Alabama; last I heard they were working on some reconstructions of Tang ensembles and music. If you Google (or other search engine) "tang music" or either name, it should show up. Also look on John Thompson's silkqin.com website.

I've got a reproduction Tang d. xiao/shakuhachi (it has a shaku type blowing edge but six holes) and they pointed me toward some music for it. Interesting stuff, but I can't remember where it came from, though I think it was an old issue of "Musica Asiatica" magazine.

Best to all, and keep playing.
K.

[calden]

K.:

Thanks for the references and the discussion. Excellent points. We used to say "Bach would have used the synthesizer if he had one."

I play trad Irish music and there is absolutely no end to discussion of what constitutes authentic and traditional. When someone doesn't like our music and yearns for the traditional sound, I point out that the violin is a relative newcomer to the genre. Hell, if you want traditional and authentic, we'd have to go back to gut-strung harps and stag-bone whistles and goat-skin drums. And throw those damn electronic tuners out, too!

I guess what I'm looking for is what an historian's best guess would be as to the playing style (light, heavy), tempo, instrumentation (solo, duets, trios, whole room full of cousins,) and general sound. As you point out, so much of this would be conjecture as it is with early European music, but I think we could get some good guesses from written music and the limitations of the instruments. Crude bagpipes simply cannot be played fast. And we could guess that they would be played alone, for who would want to sit with them??!! (joke.)

I'll search for those U. of A. folks. In the meantime I've got a few CDs coming. Interesting cultural juxtaposition that ancient Chinese musical history is being done at a Deep South university. Almost as weird as erhu music being played by an Anglo-American with an Hispanic name. Wait a minute....

Thanks again,
Carlos

[Si]

those cds have chinese titles - hmmm not sure what to do...

i could scan one so you can see what info you need or.....

i could rip it to my hard drive and you could do the normal think and download it free using soulseek after all the cd only cost me 10rmb!

[calden]

Syburn -

I'd be fine with mp3 files. I'm not looking for audiophile quality. I'm fine with copying music for friends when something is difficult to find. Then, when I do find it I'll buy it. I do this all the time, and have told my kids (who's friends rampantly pass around fave hits copied to CDs) that they can make or accept CDs like this on the condition that it's a preview - if they like it they have to buy it to support the artist.

Or, if you can find this disk (disks) again and buy it and send it to me (if it's not any trouble) that would be great.

Carlos

[Si]

i do the same if its a thing that i want seriously

but i am talking about copyig chinese products, so its perfectly acceptable, as copying foreign dvd and cds is a way of life here. in fact copy dvd shops are very proud of their products quality so it must be a very reputable industry.

they should even be proud that foreigners would want to steal there interlectual material - so dont worry is totally ok.......here

[kyokuhon]

Hey, Calden (and all!).
Boy, I wish this continent weren't so big. I'd love to get together to talk about this stuff. Not much time right now, but check this out: www.jstor.org/view/00274380/ap030238/03a00090/0.
I haven't read the entire review, but it might point you toward at least some of the info you're looking for.
Best,
K.

[kyokuhon]

Hi, again,
and this: www.uark.edu/ua/eeam/
K.

[calden]

Thanks for the references, but I'm having trouble. First one won't let me in the academic system, second one only has front pages of the lecture topic but no text or content. Help???

Carlos

[davidmdahl]

I have the same experience with both sites. Jstor is an annoying resource since it comes up on google searches yet the content is not accessible for those not on a university network. I think it is possible to download specific articles for $15. So far that has not been something I am willing to do.

Best wishes,

David

[kyokuhon]

Hi,
sorry, I probably have pre-approved access since I'm going on from a college, though I wasn't aware of it. I'll see what can be done, maybe read and summarize. Also, I think you may have seen all that the second site has, I just put it in for the contact link. In any case, try contacting Markham directly. She was very helpful (and even chatty) when I had an exchange with her before. They're really into it, too. When we had talked, they were waiting for a replica Tang d. pipa (5 strings).
C.

[davidbadagnani]

Sorry to be so late getting to the discussion! This CD is very good but there's no telling how authentic it is. The trio with pipa, zheng, and ruan sounds very strange compared to today's Chinese music. This CD, on the French Inedit label, may be very hard to find.

[davidbadagnani]

The URL for that CD I just mentioned:
www.mcm.asso.fr/site02/inedit/cd260036.htm

[calden]

david:

Thanks. I just ordered it. Great stuff. Some of the very early Chinese music sounds like Japanese shakuhachi music. I have a friend who plays, and it's free-floating emotive stuff that is too elusive for me to grab on to.

When we were in China last, we visited the Hubei Provincial Museum in Wuhan where we saw the complete set of bronze bells that were dug up. They reassembled them and made recordings based on notation found on the bells and other sources (I have one of these disks):

www.trekearth.com/gallery/Asia/China/photo15072.htm

Very interesting music but very slow and pensive. You can tell that they were interested in the harmonic overtones, which tend to come out in slower pieces using percussive instruments. Extremely spiritual.

Carlos

[calden]

I just got the ancient music of Chang'An disk and am in my second listening.

EX-frickin'-QUISITE MUSIC!! This is wonderful stuff, so unlike any of the erhu repertoire I'm more accustomed to. Great singing on this disk. Lots of sheng, dizi, and percussion playing. Thanks so much for the suggestion. Happy happy.

Carlos