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Post by Si on Feb 27, 2006 14:43:32 GMT
I have just got stuck on some jian zi pu.
On the 15th section (forgot the word for the area in between the single bar lines), it starts with - 7 then 2 with a slur (curvy arrow) to the 3.
The jian zi pu says left thumb stops 9, right guo on 5 string : then next is a liu (6) alone with no other info : then a column of shang, 7, 9.
My teacher never explained it and im not to sure how to play it.
I imagined its a slow piece. Not sure what its supposed to be about though.
Cheers
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Post by Charlie Huang on Feb 27, 2006 19:19:10 GMT
On liu, you should use the previously stated position (i.e. 9th hui; thus, after playing 5th string at 9th hui, you jump down to 6th string 9th hui and your right middle finger should already be touching string 6 to pluck it with gou). Then, slide up to 7th hui 9th fen (i.e. 7.9).
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Post by sleepy on Feb 28, 2006 2:29:22 GMT
Is this something you're learning in class? I imagine the teacher would take you bar by bar through the piece?  Is this from the same transcription you've mentioned before in a different thread? From John Thompson's site? This piece contains the technique for the left thumb to switch from one string to the next at the same hui—it's supposed to be done smoothly (left thumb stops at 9th hui, right guo on 5th string: then next is a 6)... If it isn't being taught in class, it's not easy for an absolute beginner to manage the fingering correctly without a certain amount of practice + live instruction from a teacher. If you really want to play this piece now, there's a chance that you might have to bypass certain techniques that's beyond your current technical level. |
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Post by Si on Feb 28, 2006 4:43:44 GMT
Hi,
Its a group class and basically the teacher sits at the front and just shows you and talks. I am a bit annoyed that he does not come to each person and check if its correct or not. It is the dark ages of teaching practices, but then this is china so i did not realy expect anything better. I am seriously thinking of taking a private lesson for one on one instruction.
We were all given this peice without any demonstation apart from spending the lesson learning to use left thumb and ring finger and some Fan yin.
Oh Fan yin is so hard....... the teacher keeps the finger over the sting but when i try it seems easier to achieve the sound by timing it so that i move the finger away.
Thanks for the tips.
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Post by Si on Feb 28, 2006 4:57:57 GMT
Oh yeah, its the same piece, silly me. But the one I have seems to be shorter.
I supose the teascher has x amount of thing he needs to get through in 13 weeks, which is the duration of the course. Its a very cheap course and only 65rmb per lesson. But as you have all advised me before, I should be taught in the correct way, which is why another one on one lesson might be good for me.
Still its interesting working though this piece and its is starting to sound a but more like music the more I play it. I am playing it rather slow a) becasue i am a beginner b) because I cant imaging a "transcendentle venerable one" rushing anything!
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Post by Charlie Huang on Feb 28, 2006 9:15:30 GMT
The 'proper' teaching method is either, one-on-one facing each other, or going to each individual in the class and helping them learn.
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Post by sleepy on Mar 1, 2006 2:40:35 GMT
Hi, Its a group class and basically the teacher sits at the front and just shows you and talks. I am a bit annoyed that he does not come to each person and check if its correct or not... Don't wait for the teacher to come to you, go and ask him any question you have, let him demonstrate until you understand. Make your class time (and ¥) well spent. |
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Post by Si on Mar 2, 2006 4:13:04 GMT
OK got through al of this basic transcirption of Xian Weng Cao, but the last note is odd.
It looks like 2 sets of jian zi pu seperated by a "T", on the top of the T is a sort of box with 1 line through it horizontally.
I can work out the fingerings on each side of the T but how to play them together.
From looking at the chinese notes it says 5 with another 5 ontop. So must be 2 sounds together.
Any Ideas??
PS it all played in Fan YIn in this section
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Post by sleepy on Mar 2, 2006 6:23:08 GMT
Without seeing the actual symbol I can only make a guess of what you're talking about. It seems like a "cuo"--two right fingers plucking two strings at the same time. There are "da cuo" and "xiao cuo", depending on the distance between the 2 strings and which fingers to use. OK got through al of this basic transcirption of Xian Weng Cao, but the last note is odd. It looks like 2 sets of jian zi pu seperated by a "T", on the top of the T is a sort of box with 1 line through it horizontally. I can work out the fingerings on each side of the T but how to play them together. From looking at the chinese notes it says 5 with another 5 ontop. So must be 2 sounds together. Any Ideas?? PS it all played in Fan YIn in this section |
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Post by Charlie Huang on Mar 2, 2006 9:13:54 GMT
It's definately a cuo. You need to give more information than that. String and hui number, etc.
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Post by Si on Mar 5, 2006 4:59:43 GMT
The teacher just went though this piece. I missed alot of things. They gave me such a poor photo copy that i could not tell the jian zi pu from specks and dots ....tut!
Anyway I now have shang, chuo, zhu and qia qi to worry about.
But im not sure about how to do the chuo and zhu? Any tips
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Post by blueharp on Mar 5, 2006 8:05:15 GMT
To my understanding chuo is similar to shang, but smaller. Likewise zhu is similar to xia but smaller. An illustrated example is available here: www.tcfb.com/guqin/under left hand techniques |
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Post by Si on Mar 5, 2006 16:14:08 GMT
I have found a teacher that speaks english. Her teacher was tought by one of the writers of the Mei-an qin pu. WOW!
Its one-on-one and so much better than my group lesson. I am now trying to correct all my bad mistakes and find myself performing tiao in all situations without realising it, haha.
She only teachers with the qin pu scores, it this normal? So I am following Xiang Weng Cao in qin pu, but its different from the one I have been learning in the group class. Strange!
She told me that I can add shang to the notes even if it is not shown in the score as her teacher told her to do so. Anyway sounds better that way.
Its a bit hard at the moment, following pure qin pu written right to left and top to bottom. But if i can maybe record each piece (on mp3) that she demonstates, then I can play it back whilst practicing at home and will not need any western or chinese notation. Is that correct?
;D
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Post by Charlie Huang on Mar 5, 2006 20:32:02 GMT
That's all fine to me! You're lucky to find her. DO NOT LET HER GO NO MATTER WHAT!!!
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Post by Si on Mar 12, 2006 14:56:16 GMT
Oh I am trying to play guo on the 5, then 6,then 7th string without moving my thumb from the 9th hui. Its realy very hard to play the 6 and 7 string and keep a solid contact on the string producing a correct sound.
My teacher says i have to relax my left hand but i have to apply so much pressure that it seems impossible.
Anyone have any tips? If I tilt my hand a bit it seems to help tp get more contact?
thanks
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Post by sleepy on Mar 12, 2006 19:56:04 GMT
It involves another point of contact on the thumb than the usual, and requires your thumb to switch angles at the joint with ease. Can't really tell you what to do though without actually seeing how you play. This is your 1st piece, right? When I was a beginner my 2nd piece was Yang Guan where there is/are place(s) requiring this type of string switching, but my teacher didn't expect me to learn it at that stage, not until the 4th piece, which was about 9 or 10 months after the first class. You might be pissed at me saying this: perhaps you are learning too much too soon? Oh I am trying to play guo on the 5, then 6,then 7th string without moving my thumb from the 9th hui. Its realy very hard to play the 6 and 7 string and keep a solid contact on the string producing a correct sound. My teacher says i have to relax my left hand but i have to apply so much pressure that it seems impossible. Anyone have any tips? If I tilt my hand a bit it seems to help tp get more contact? thanks |
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Post by Si on Mar 13, 2006 5:17:29 GMT
Hmmm....
How long did you spend on each piece? I dont want to just learn peice after piece and not be able to play any of them well.
But my teacher did say to me that it is hard to master this stopping technique and it would take a while to learn.
My teacher said she would not spend time on scales or excersizes and that I would learn the techniques as i learn each piece.
I have this one lesson a week and its one on one and the teacher speaks english and makes me follow the qin pu because thats the way she learnt in Taiwan.
anyway thanks
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Post by Charlie Huang on Mar 13, 2006 9:42:09 GMT
When you press on 5, your thumb tip points to the left, when you press on the 6th, your thumb tip points straight ahead, and when you press on 7th your thumb tip should point to the right (using the joint to press on the string).
It's best to see this to understand how it's done, but very soon you'll get it through intuition of learning.
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Post by Si on Mar 13, 2006 16:27:53 GMT
Oh yes this seems to help, although my respective fingers are somewhat raw now  |
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Post by sleepy on Mar 14, 2006 2:16:04 GMT
Hmmm.... How long did you spend on each piece? I dont want to just learn peice after piece and not be able to play any of them well. It depends on the length of each piece. My teacher has a very systematic approach to teaching guqin. As I've mentioned before she started me off not with any qin pieces but elementary fingering drills—right hand first (san yin), then some basic left hand (an yin) plus harmonics (fan yin) for qin tuning. During class she would have me do the basic drills back and forth until I did it right. This very elementary stage lasted for about 2 months (7-8 classes). For every qin piece taught in class the teacher basically went through it sentence by sentence with me and also, had me repeat playing what was just taught until I got it right. Because of all these repetitions, by the time she finished going through the entire piece, I was more or less able to memorize most of it! But she wouldn't yet move on to a new piece, she would continue teaching in details, like adding dynamics and articulations, sentence by sentence. We wouldn't move on until I played to her satisfaction. For Yang Guan, my 2nd piece, I remembered it took a whole summer. So you see, neither my teacher nor I was in any hurry. On the side of learning the pieces, she began teaching certain fingering techniques early on, which will take a while to do it right, like "lun", "gun fu", and something like 2 sets of quick fan yin played one after another (I don't know what it's called). Those "side orders" were given as small drills to practice a little over time so that by the time I go on to the more technically demanding pieces, I would already have a grasp of the techniques and be able concentrate more on learning how to play "music", not just playing "notes". |
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Post by Si on Mar 14, 2006 5:26:56 GMT
Sounds good.
Not sure now about the way my teacher is running it. I suppose most people like to play pieces so teachers will cater to that.
Maybe I should ask my teacher for some grills and also not to forget a piece once I am on the the next. After learning others i would probably be able to add more skill to the old ones.
What about other students study systems? What are/were your lessons like?
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Post by Si on Mar 15, 2006 15:17:18 GMT
I can get through the whole thing now with minor errors , but it sounds a bit flat and dull.
I have been shang-ing down on the left hand hui, and i can do the yin etc.
Any tips to add articulation on dynamics that I can try.
I suppose in a fwe months i will be ablr to play it better than now though....
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