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Post by Vi An on Dec 9, 2004 15:49:45 GMT
There is such a great group here!!!
As much as I enjoy watching large Chinese orchestras perform I would have to be honest and say I'd only prefer it more if the gu zheng or qin was the solo lead. In an orchestra setting the gu zheng does so little and if it is doing quite a bit, its totally drowned out by the rest, I mean is it necissary to have two yang-qins? In classical music my favorite is baroque because it is a most dark, intense and dramatic form of music!
Okay now to the real reason why I made this post:
With regards to a statement made about a teacher who does not prefer to teach the scales and bare basics first, is like teaching math without the various addition and subtraction signs no?
Most people who pick up an instrument for the first time to learn is basically "blind". You can have vivid dreams about how the instrument sounds to you and how you'd like to achieve most of the skills you hear in various CD recordings of that choice instrument. But at the end of the day, without proper guidence of the bare basics and without constant dedication to practicing of those much needed building block skills, one will not truly express to their fullest intent on any instrument.
Basically, every student learns very differently from the other -- some are talented enough and who's observation skills work best by seeing or hearing an example. Where others may need very explicit and consice direcitons. Everyone's gift and talent level is also very different and ultimately determines how far they will go with a chosen instrument. That is why you hear of so many people who only learnt an instrument say for 3 months and they quit suddenly.. Some people learn an instrument as a hobbie while others may be more serious about entering a musical career.
I think all of the above must be thoroughly considered by a teacher of all their students.
A lot of people approach me and ask me to teach them to play the gu zheng, and basically I say to them:
"I am self-taught and I found that I have a musical gift therefore I was able to pick up the instrument quickly with just a few basic lessons. However -- because I do not read a single note of music and mainly just go by feel in the moment; what can I possibly teach you?" "If you are already an aspiring musician and have a firm understanding of notation and composition, perhaps I may take you in as an advanced learner and just show you my own discovered techniques etc on the gu zheng." I have a few "students" who do already have a great understanding and hold some basic gu zheng skills who want to further their learning and appreciation, as well as "students" who wish to learn other unique techniques which their own zheng teachers have not taught them or "refuse" to share. Other "students" of mine prefer just to jam and develop their own expressive skills! I do not charge any of my "students" as much as they'd like to pay me, I just simply enjoy the company of another human being who is so passionate about the gu zheng!!! I wish I had that when I was growing up, I was always pushed away by gu zheng teachers in summer school because I couldn't afford lessons with them.
Warmest regards to all,
Vi An.
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Post by paulv on Dec 9, 2004 16:53:45 GMT
Vi An/David,
Thanks for your posts -- I totally agree with both of you. When I was first involved in [western] music (many, many, many years ago), I was always taught to do scale exercises -- all the scales from all major keys, and the 3 types of minor keys -- on the three staff types -- and playing them with expression. I was just surprised that my instructor uses another method -- I'm not complaining about the method, just wanted to get opinions from others who have much more experience with Chinese music than I. I thought that this was the training difference between eastern and western music. Vi An, by the way, some of my favorite erhu music I have on CDs have either a guzheng or yangqin with the erhu being the lead -- it is simply beautiful.
Regards,
Paul Valente
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 9, 2004 17:21:21 GMT
On the question of exercises, I have not taken lessons in Chinese music, but if my Vietnamese lessons are any indication, it may just depend on the teacher. My guess is that in general, conservatory oriented training may focus more on technical exercises such as scales, since the conservatory is a Western institution. Teachers who learned outside of the conservatory system may have their own methods developed over generations of master teachers.
My own teacher has not assigned me any exercises, but focuses on tunes. Other teachers who have taught me one-off classes have encouraged exercises, particularly scales. This is useful in Vietnamese music to fix the particular mode in the ear. The tunings of certain notes depend on the mode a tune is built upon. Since I have had, and continue to have, a lot of non-Asian music going through my head, I need all the help I can get to play VN music in tune.
In the end, a teacher is someone who helps us to teach ourselves. Over time we learn what sorts of techniques help that process.
Best wishes,
David Dahl Portland, Oregon
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Post by paulv on Dec 9, 2004 17:32:00 GMT
Hi David,
Well said...........
Regards, Paul
PS: Have you tried learning that Journey to GuSu on your new Xiao yet?
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Post by calden on Dec 9, 2004 21:55:34 GMT
Paul:
Yes, I am learning scales. I warm up with them. They're not simple do-re-mi-fa-sol up and down again, though, but rather exercises that my teacher gave me. They involve scale patterns and lots of fancy finger work and string-chaning, things like that. I can always find some technical bit to work on and improve in them, and when I do work this way, slow and steady, maybe 10 times in a row, things get a bit smoother.
After scales and exercises for maybe anywhere from 5-30 minutes I get on to some songs. I try and play songs that I already know, at least once through, maybe stopping once or twice to smooth out what sounds a bit rough - like when I have to jump up to third position and keep things in tune. I've got a repertoire of about ten tunes like this.
Then I move on to some of the new songs I'm learning, and will find one and work on it exclusively for about 30 minutes. At this point I need a break because i'm getting tennis elbow in my left arm from the position, and I feel my right wrist needing a break from all the bow work.
The only instrument I play that I don't practice scales on is fingerpicking guitar. I work on song fragments but don't do exercises per se.
Carlos
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 9, 2004 21:58:59 GMT
PS: Have you tried learning that Journey to GuSu on your new Xiao yet? I have been on the road in Texas since the beginning of December. I am very much looking forward to my return home to Portland on Friday evening. You can bet that checking out my new xiao is high on my list, after properly greeting my wife and daughter of course. <g> It will probably take me a while to familiarize myself with the fingering on the xiao before attempting "Journey to GuSu". Best wishes, David Dahl Portland, Oregon
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Dec 9, 2004 23:17:39 GMT
Journey to Gusu should be done of a Qudi in C key, and not a xiao. I recommend Zhuang Tai Qiu Si for Xiao
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Post by Charlie Huang on Dec 10, 2004 11:39:41 GMT
As a guqin player, we are taught differently from other instruments. I do agree that in the conservatories they teach scales, but for me, I do not feel I need to know them. LXT told me and my classmates in July that you should mainly practice fingering the cord scales of dajiangou and xiaojiangou on several strings to familarise one's self with the note positions and to exercise your fingering before beginning to play pieces. I generally begin with that, though I excute it rather slowly (LXT was like a sprinter on strings!), but I knew that they were probably one of the most difficult things to excute very fastly on guqin! I then, go through a few short easy pieces like Guanshan Yue, Qiufeng Ci, before going on my main piece of the evening.
But now, I am slowly trying to learn note positions in the gongci way (i.e. gong, shang, jue, zhi, yu, etc) on the qin as I will be playing some pieces in the future from tablature such as Qinxue Congshu, which has gongci tablature in it of which are mainly used in duets with xiao and se.
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Post by Si on Mar 13, 2006 9:55:57 GMT
So what is considered the best way to practice?
Like for how long and in what why etc.
I personnaly prefer to try to learn the piece so i dont have to look at the score as things seem sto slow down when I do.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Mar 13, 2006 15:03:30 GMT
You should practice one piece for an hour a day. And after you've learnt it, keep on playing it continuously for a month to make it stick in your head. If you don't, you can easily forget it by month three...
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Post by calden on Mar 13, 2006 15:59:33 GMT
All:
Let me share something I've learned from teaching American folk music. It's very important to listen and really, really know the piece you're learning. That seems self-evident but it's really amazing the number of people who want to just jump in with the music and instrument and don't really know it.
I use to have students listen to a piece 10 times in a row without playing. This was very hard for many people! They feel as if they are not DOING anything by just listening. But when - and only when - they have the tune soaked in their bones then the notation makes SO much more sense, and it's easier to learn. After all, the markings on paper are just shorthand for the real thing, which is the sound of the tune.
I thus advocate picking one tune you want to learn and IMMERSING yourself in it, listening to as many versions as you can, having it on in the background when travelling (yeah iPod!) or cooking or working out or housecleaning, etc., for as long as possible, even to the point where you don't hear it anymore when it's on because you know it so well.
When you are learning it on your instrument, then, your fingers will seek the proper pitch, note, position, because you're trying to make the tune, not just the numbers/position on paper.
I know this is immediately apparent to most of us here, so I apologize for belaboring the obvious, but for many people studying music for the first time it may not occur to them that listening is as much a part of learning an instrument as playing technique.
Carlos
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Post by davidmdahl on Mar 13, 2006 18:28:52 GMT
Over the years I have used a variety of practice techniques depending on my time, energy, and goals of the tune I was working on at the time. I very much agree with Carlos about getting the tune in your ear. It really helps to know how the tune sounds without even touching your instrument. The ability to play the tune in your mind is a big step in really knowing the music. It is a good idea to refer back to the score from time-to-time in case memory slips become ingrained.
I get the most done in the quickest amount of time when I practice in several short blocks of time, rather than one long period. When I can manage it, I like to focus on something for 20 minutes or so, and then go on to something else. When I am getting tired or have trouble focusing, it is time to take a break or do something else. Often times when I am struggling with some music, I will take a break. When I come back to the music, it might not be so much of a struggle. I think that the mind does some work on the music during the break.
It is important to practice every day. An hour or more per day of practicing is a good plan, but sometimes it is not possible to find a solid block of uninterrupted time that long. I find that even 15 minutes will do me some good if I use it to focus on one or two trouble spots. Two or three (or more) 15 minute practice sessions during a day can be more effective than a solid block of time, if the time is used wisely.
I do believe in the value of exercises and scales for developing good technique. This allows us to focus on a few problems at a time in a concentrated manner. It is possible to learn technique from tunes only if you are disciplined and can make up your own exercises from problem spots in the music. My tendency is to waste time playing the easy spots on my way to the harder spots.
I am repeating myself, but I get a lot out of listening to recordings of my practicing and performing. Passages that sound fine when I am playing them often don't sound quite so secure and steady when I listen to the recording. Listing to the recording can be humbling, but it is the best way to find how you will sound to an audience. I also like to videotape myself to see how I am coming across visually. Unconscious habits can be startling to see.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by Si on Mar 16, 2006 5:20:08 GMT
Great advice above for learning a piece.
I actually recorded my teacher playing the piece so that I could have it to hand on my PDA.
I also prefer smaller chuncks of practice time. I might practice in 2 chunks in an evening.
I also like to have a mini session before I go to work.
But for the beginners pieces I with there was more sources out there for me to here other players play the same piece.
(Ideally this forum wound be closer to perfection if we could search uploaded music - but that would require a bigger server I suppose)
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