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Post by rhp on Nov 24, 2004 4:26:21 GMT
I have several years of western musical training (flute and pic), however, due to braces causing facial/mouth pain, I would like to try a stringed or percussion instrument. Unless someone can suggest a wind instrument which would not interfere with my braces, which instrument would be a good choice to start? I have a "moon lute" but not sure if it has good musical tone. Is there an "easier" instrument for me to start with? Also, are any of the instructional vcds/dvds worth buying? (I don't speak chinese). There is a local musical ensemble I would like to join but I will have to develop sufficient proficiency to audition, first. Which instrument would be a quick learn? Thanks guys. I really like this forum.
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Post by davidmdahl on Nov 24, 2004 5:07:00 GMT
I do not think it is useful to classify instruments as difficult or easy to learn. In every aspect that you look at it, the answer is "it depends". If you have a passion for the instrument and the music, then any difficulty is not of great concern. If you have a good teacher, many potential difficulties can be avoided. On the other hand, if you have trouble making the time to practice and must figure things out without a teacher, just about any instrument is difficult.
One thing that helps learning any new instrument, besides passion, patience, and good instruction, is being a good musician. A good musician will have good listening skills, good rhythm, and understand music theory. It also helps a lot to know how to practice effectively. The right teacher is a decisive factor for success or failure even when there is passion. Of course, this is a bit too much of a generalization. Surely many musicians do well on their own. But you asked about 'easy'. <g>
Percussion instruments properly played are not easy at all. Bad or inexperienced drummers can be really annoying to play with. Rhythm instruments really require one to be an excellent musician. If you can get proper instruction however, and can get good at it, you will get gigs and probably have a lot of fun. Musical percussionists in any genre are like gold.
If you are in an area where you can find a teacher to whatever you want to learn, then choose the instrument and then choose the teacher. If finding any sort of teacher will be a challenge, then the 'right' method is tough to define. I chose my instrument, the Vietnamese dan bau, without much hope of finding a teacher, and then travelled wherever I had to for help when the opportunity arose. Then I found a teacher only a few blocks away from my home. Miracles do happen. <g>
I am curious about the "moon lute". Is this a Chinese or Vietnamese instrument? How many strings?
Best wishes,
David Dahl
Portland, Oregon
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Post by rhp on Nov 24, 2004 5:13:16 GMT
Chinese, 3 metal strings.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Nov 24, 2004 8:42:52 GMT
Are you talking about the yueqin?
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Nov 24, 2004 13:56:00 GMT
Hi
I think Guzhengs are easier, but the 3 stringed instrument, does it have a sncke skin body? If it does, its a San-Sian, if it doesn't it could be a Qinqin, or Qin Dynasty(1st dysnasty) lute... all 3 strings one.
As they say, "Qian Re Pipa, Bai re Zheng, Yi shi San Sian Xue bu Cheng" (Thousand says to learn a pipa, Hundred Days to learn the Zheng, but 1 lifetime of learning, and San-sian is still difficult)
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Post by calden on Nov 24, 2004 14:07:37 GMT
I have a yueqin, sometimes called a moon guitar, and it's slightly larger than a mandolin, and has four strings that feel like silk and steel guitar strings. Sounds like a banjo with a wood top instead of a skin or plastic head. It wouldn't be too hard to learn if one has some idea of how to hold and play a guitar-like instrument. Certainly would be easier than an erhu, pipa, guzheng, or guqin. You can see one in action by going to eaglelake1.org/carlosand following the links to the Chinese New Year Movie. This clip is only a few minutes long and has excerpts from a performance I did about a year ago. Near the very end is a zoom shot of me with the yueqin, belting out a few hot licks. Carlos |
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Post by rhp on Nov 24, 2004 14:46:59 GMT
Yes, mine is Yangqin, with wood, not animal hide top. Thank you all for your suggestions. I appreciate it very much.
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Nov 24, 2004 14:53:07 GMT
Yangqin is dulcimer!
There are 128 strings at least!!
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Post by rhp on Nov 24, 2004 15:17:29 GMT
Told you I don't understand Chinese!! :-)
Actually I have a Yuetchin or moon lute. I'm sure it's not good quality but I got it for less than $20 from a chinese opera fan who carried it back with him, then decided he couldn't play. BTW, any traditional Chinese opera fans out there? Maybe we could start a new string...
thanks again
Rachel/Rui Shu
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Nov 24, 2004 23:12:39 GMT
Me, Me!!
I love Chinese Opera!
Whats your favourite genre?
Mine is either Shanghai or Teochew. You?
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Post by rhp on Nov 25, 2004 5:32:33 GMT
Bejing and Cantonese are what I'm enjoying most now, however, I've never seen any traditional Chinese opera that I didn't like....the music is great, and it's so well staged that you don't even need to understand Chinese to still enjoy it. I wanted to start studying Chinese next semester but my course load is too heavy. Wish I'd studied Chinese for a year BEFORE I started studying TC medicine...
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Post by davidmdahl on Nov 25, 2004 7:26:38 GMT
I have only seen one program of Taiwanese opera. I have heard some Peking opera recordings, but they did not appeal to me as much as the Taiwanese style. I know a little more about Vietnamese Cheo and Tuong opera styles, and that is little enough.
In general, I am fascinated by the role of percussion and dance in Asian opera styles. A western opera singer is often built more like a battle-ship than a gymnast. I can do without the pinched nasal style of some of the instruments and voices. I suppose this is why I like Taiwanese opera better. A little suona goes a long way with me, and I prefer the erhu to the gaohu.
One of the favorite figures in Vietnamese Cheo is the Buddhist "Goddess of Mercy". In VN she is Quan Am Thi Kinh, and in Chinese she is Quan Yin. Is she a popular subject in Chinese opera too?
Best wishes,
David Dahl
Portland, Oregon
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Nov 25, 2004 13:45:17 GMT
HIya !!
Well, Different Opera types are fun, cos of the different Vamps, styles, tunes..
Peking Opera's lead is Jinhu, goes by either 6 3 strings known as Xi Pi (western skin) or 52 (known as Erhuang).
Shanghai Opera goes on the tune of Jiangnan Sizu and Kun Music by a lot, and its most famous Vamp, (simply play in quick susession)
555535235435.532123525321761.23222543232165612322..... and it goes on and on, but its the most melodious.
and there are as many styles as we can count.
Somehow, Kwan Yim is not largely in our Opera styles, or at least seldom. We play a lot of love stories, war heroes and the like.
Liang Shan Bo Yu Zhu Ying Tai (or Butterfly Lovers) orginated from Shanghai Opera, and the entire opera play is very engaging, (though if you play dizi and xiao non-stop for 4 hours, you'll feel like dying-- Pity the dizi/xiao and the Zhuhu(main erhu guy)
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Post by rhp on Nov 25, 2004 14:43:50 GMT
The quality of comedy is excellent, very visual. There is generally little need to understand Chinese in order to enjoy the opera. One Cantonese video that's widely available on vcd, "Tong's Affair" doesn't feature the best music/technical quality, but the performers are fantastic, and the entire farce is unusually funny. I think this is a good way to introduce non-musicians and non-Chinese speakers to Chinese opera.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Nov 30, 2004 11:32:12 GMT
There is a new thread created for Chinese Opera, so...
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Post by Vi An on Dec 8, 2004 14:30:20 GMT
Hello all! Hope all is well. Great thread!
My love towards the cello was renewed in a big way when Tan Dun's film score for Crouching Tiger Hidden Draggon with Yo-Yo Ma on cello. I did not care anything for the story or there lack of, but the piece of music was just superb -- so emotional and Ma's playing is heavenly and his instrument sings as a great voice!
Yesterday I visited my gal-pal who works in a prestegious violin and fine strings shop, and hugged a cello and began to stroke its strings with the bow. This would be my second time with a cello *teeeheehehehehee*. A gorgeous sound and vibration went rumbled through my entire body and up to my medula -- soooooo blissful!
Bowed instruments are difficult to learn as are strummed instruments with necks, any time you need to find notes on many strings in the dark is difficult, it takes many many years of learning and great inner talent these instruments. Where as the gu zheng is not as difficult because eventually after all the basics one is able to self-discover and become rather expressive, yes over a long period of time -- but not as long to accomplish a few expressive techniques.
Percussion instruments are extremely challenging, yes I agree with David on that if the player is inexperienced or has noooooo sense of rhythm what so ever, it really ruins the moment lets just put it that way. Percussion instruments like hand drums especially require an extremely great listener, effective percussion is if the volume is controlled and beats are precise. If played well percussion instruments become so expressive and complimenting!
At the end of the day it is never too late to learn and pick up a new instrument, I would love to have a few lessons a month for cello just so I can watch, listen and become inspired by it!
I'd be willing to learn the Chinese orchestra's equivalent of the cello too by the way, just to keep on theme with Chinese instruments.
Actually come to think of it I'd love to learn the following Chinese instruments:
pi'pa
gu qin
san-xian
da ruan
I had an experience with san-xian a few weeks ago after seeing a concert of a musician who played it as well as pi'pa and gu zheng. She was very nice but nothing spectacular in concert but at her music workshop the next day though that was wonderful, nothing like a musician relaxed after the pressures of performance! So yes, I picked it up afterwards and stummed about and its just great, such a percussive quality and can be so lyrical too. She demonstrated this piece she said was really ancient and would accompany the qin, I was in dream land - imagining the qin right there too!!! Its such an ancient sound and brings such nostalgia feelings..
Alright enough from me for now!
My warmest regards,
Vi An.
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Post by paulv on Dec 8, 2004 16:04:22 GMT
Hi Vi An,
Hope things are well with you also. I really enjoyed reading your post. I've been studying erhu for 1 year now and can just barely get in 2-3 hours of practice every day. I wish I had time to explore other traditional Chinese instruments as they sound so lyrical and expressive. Maybe someday, when I'm somewhat proficient on the erhu, I can migrate to other huqin instruments. I LOVE traditional Chinese music.
I even watch Chinese DVD movies (depicting the old dynasties) with my wife (she's Chinese, I'm not) just so I can hear the music -- I go crazy when there's an erhu in the score! I wish I could find sound track CD's of those movies.
I've always enjoyed the sound of a cello, and even though I wished that the Tiger/Dragon movie had an erhu instead of cello, but Ma Yo-Yo is truly a master. I ended up buying the music soundtrack CD (not the video, I share your opinion on the movie). There's one track that has the erhu & cello playing a sort of canon -- it is really pretty.
I think all musical instruments are difficult to play -- each one has its own set of "difficulties". When I graduated from high school, I went on to a very good music school (no name mentioned -- this forum is no place to brag!!) where I studied music arranging and my instrument was the vibraphone (similar to a xylophone with metal keys and 3 octaves (F below middle C up to F) -- I was really into jazz at that time. Now, a few decades later, I'm returning to music, as a hobby. The erhu is a real challenge to me since I had no experience with bowed instruments (except writing music for them) and it takes a long time to get a "good" sound from them.
I'm certainly not going to guit my day job, but I would like to be able to play the erhu well, but not professionaly. I tend to read everyone's posts on this forum, mainly because they all having interesting things to say even though they may not apply to anything I'm doing.
Best wishes and try and stay warm -- it must be getting real cold in Canada by now.
Regards,
Paul Valente
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Dec 9, 2004 1:00:56 GMT
Hi!!
In that, we should ALL attempt to explore a Traditional Chinese Symphonic Orchestra. It is built on the same plane as an Orchestra, but the Chinese tones are varied (imagine, Guzheng, Dizi, Erhu (20 of them )).
Gaohu and Erhu Plays the parts of Violins, Zhonghu the parts of Viola. We have no brass, but we have the pizzicato section, of Zhong Ruan, Da Ruan, Pipa, liuqin, yangqin etcetc. Guzheng, well, iots counterpoint melodies and cadenzas are well, fantastic.
We don't have an advanced bass instrument. Hence, for the past 50 years, the chinese use Cellos and basses in their orchestra. My orchestra has 8 Basses and 14 celloes. Helping out the basses will be the Shengs or free reeds. Soprano, Alto, Contrabass Sheng.
At the top, are the dizi and suona. Modern suona had begun to look like and oboe, and it employs brahm fingerings. It is 1 octave lower than traditional suona, though, it sound really good.
By now you'll see, some orchestras reach numbers exceding 100 members. There are as many instruments as you can count!
I LOVE CHINESE MUSIC!!
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Post by Vi An on Dec 9, 2004 6:58:00 GMT
I have a couple of DVDs one called:
"The Magic Notes of Zhao Jiping" which features an all out traditional Chinese philharmonic orchestra (Hongkong Chinese Orchestra it reads) with unique looking cellos and basses which resemble huge er-hu(s)! A few very fascinating pieces of music such as: "Monk Jianzhen Sailing Eastward" a symphonic poem features the Shakuhachi and gu zheng! I guess this DVD features mostly film score music by this composer..
The other DVD I have is called:
"Chinese New Year Concert" which also features an all out traditional Chinese orchestra. They are performing in what appears to be a huge Catheadral with a lot of digniteries in attendence.. A great collection of works too. I was browsing an import store with various CDs and DVDs/VCDs and these were the only treasures I came accross as I have been looking for these sorts of concerts on DVD for soooooooooooooooooo soooooooo long!!
My best,
Vi An.
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 9, 2004 12:59:03 GMT
I guess I am the odd man out, since I liked Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon <g>, and prefer small ensembles of traditional instruments to large ensembles. A solo or pair of traditional Chinese instruments is particularly appealing to me, since the musicians must be musically expressive and cannot not hide in a mush of sound. A silk-and-bamboo ensemble is also very appealing to me. I think that S&B presumes no more than one of each instrument.
Best wishes,
David Dahl
Portland, Oregon
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Post by paulv on Dec 9, 2004 13:26:27 GMT
Vi An, thanks for the DVD recommendations. I may be going to China again next year -- I'll check them out.
David, I don't consider you the "odd man out" since I also prefer small ensembles. I really enjoy my teacher's performances when he plays with a small quartet -- erhu, guzheng, pipa and yangqin. All the sounds seem to flow together naturally.
Regards,
Paul Valente
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Dec 9, 2004 14:00:01 GMT
Hi!
The "huge Erhus" are known as Gehus. They are actually a few of the MOST UNSCIENTIFIC instruments.
HongKong Phillamornic is the only orchestra to use it regularly.
It sounds bad, really. Not rich and often nasal. Whats worse, the huge python skin can hardly withstand a 5 degree change in temperature and 15% change in humidity.
Hence, most orchestrs use cello, and Yo-Yo Ma Rocks!
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Post by calden on Dec 9, 2004 14:19:40 GMT
Hey all:
It's interesting to read people's thoughts about instrumentation and size of ensembles.
I've experienced the large orchestral arrangements and tend to like smaller groups. Heck, when in China last I loved hearing the solo erhu from a street performer. I'm like that with my traditional Irish music as well - give me a good fiddle player with a backup instrument over a band any day. I think I like smaller numbers of players because I can better hear the individual sound of each instrument, what the player is doing with that instrument, and how the two lines interact.
Some of my very favorite music is from my erhu instruction book CD which includes a number of erhu duets. These were probably recorded on tape and in a small, dry room - not produced for audiophile quality. I love them this way - it's just like you're sitting in front of the player. And the duets are great in that I can hear what's going on. Even the pieces with erhu and yangqin are too busy for my ears, compared with the duet erhus.
I also didn't like the cello too much in Tiger/Dragon, and also didn't like the violin in Hero. I kept thinking "why is this not an erhu?"
I really appreciate this forum. Reading it, I am further inspired to practice those erhu scales! My sound is pretty good and I'm generally accurate in first and second positions, and getting where I can land the third position most of the time. Practice works, apparently.
Carlos
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Post by paulv on Dec 9, 2004 15:01:37 GMT
Hi Carlos,
I also enjoy this forum -- it's great to share info on Chinese music, as none of my friends or co-workers are interested in this subject. Thanks again to CC Charlie for rebuilding this forum from CCN.
By the way, do you practice a lot of scales or was that a figure of speech? I'm just curious because when I got an erhu teacher, he told me that he doesn't use that method and he just gives songs (various degrees of difficulty) to students to learn. He felt that practicing exercises is too dry -- like doing many algebra problems, and a student will learn/use different skills to play the song.
Regards,
Paul Valente
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 9, 2004 15:35:24 GMT
In my experience learning to play instruments, scales are a very important and effective way to learn. A tune typically has a variety of challenges, but exercises provide a concentrated problem to focus upon. Scales should not be played mechanically, but as musically as possible. Using technical exercises such as scales is used very effectively in Western instruments, and this does not lead to unmusical playing if they are practiced correctly. In fact, the more technically competent a musician is on the instrument, the easier it is to be expressive.
At times I have been tempted to study a tune before I was technically ready for it. As a result, I got sick of it long before I could play it properly. Studying technical exercises allows me to be ready for a tune more quickly.
Best wishes,
David Dahl
Portland, Oregon
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