Trad. repertoire

[davidmdahl]

While the music available for zheng and other Chinese instrument like pipa must number in the thousands, it has seemed to me that a relatively short list of tunes is actually performed and recorded. This observation is admittedly based on my own limited experience, but of the few live performances of trad. Chinese music, the tunes "Ambush from All Sides" and "Dance of the Yi People" were programmed on all of them. For the erhu, "The Horserace" is a staple. Recordings that are available in the USA also seem to have a fair number of common tunes.

Any comments? Why are the same tunes played over and over while other great tunes conceivably remain unknown?

Best wishes,

David Dahl
Portland, Oregon

[asharpe]

It appears to be the same for dizi and xiao. My Chinese wife keeps telling me not to buy any more "traditional Chinese music" CDs, because they all have the same stuff on them. (I don't read Chinese very well yet, so I couldn't tell, but I'm getting better at seeing the same songs over and over again... how many versions of Guan Shan Yue do you need?)

[Charlie Huang]

More or less the same with guqin music CDs. It seems that every CD must include Liu Shui and the like. I really wanna hear more obscure versions or other pieces that I haven't heard before. But I guess it's because of that a part of the target market for CDs is for music lovers rather than musicians (with the exception of a few), so they will decide to put the most popular ones on the CD rather than the more obscure ones; more of an introduction than really a good sampling of all and various different pieces throughout the ages. On the other hand, you can listen to different players interperatation of a certain piece, but unless you've got the dosh to fund that, then it really is a bit of a waste. I heard that they have a CD with Guan Pinghu's pieces on, which are basically plucked from his "Favourite pieces of GPH" CD set. Why buy the former when you could get the whole better set with more of his work and a booklet to boot?!

[davidmdahl]

I have wondered what truly constitutes traditional Chinese music. Is it simply enough to be performed on traditional instruments, or does it need also to be "true" to a particular tradition. If so, then which one? I have recently heard "Chinese" music that sounded more like klezmer. It turned out that the music was from the Uighar minority in Western China. That of course opens a big can of worms, since there must be very many ethnic groups in China, each with a distinct musical tradition. So then, do we mean music of the Han culture or tradition, or is that too limiting?

I have both chuckled and groaned when I have purchased a CD of so-called traditional Chinese music on a traditional instrument and found that the "solo" performance was accompanied by a large orchestra. This has not been a problem with qin or guzheng so far, but certainly is with dizi and erhu. In my opinion, Chinese music is at its best performed by a solitary musician, or a small ensemble. I suppose my rhetorical question is "Where is the line between traditional Chinese music, and Western-style arrangements of Chinese tunes?".

Best wishes,

David

[Charlie Huang]

I think 'traditional Chinese music' is mostly Han based. Certain people would differentiate it from 'music of the Chinese ethnic minorities'. Traditional Chinese music has to be recognised as Chinese as soon as one hears it more or less.

I really hate it when they stick Western instruments in with a Chinese esemble or whatever. How can that be traditional? Of course, I heard that the imperial temples of the past dynasties employed an orchestra of more than 150 musicians. But I guess, you need to play ancient pieces and appropriate instruments for it to be authentic. I find 'modern Chinese orchestra music' a bit too hard on the ear. I guess nowadays, with influence from all directions, they would want to create something out of nothing.

The BBC Proms this year had some Chinese musicians play with the main orchestra (on the Silk Road theme). Yo Yo Ma was there. It was good, though one cannot call it traditional. Also, I'd prefer if Chinese films that are set in the past (like Croaching Tiger Hidden Dragon) to be composed of music with Chinese instruments only. Having a violin play at the background always distracts me, making me question the necessity of using instruments that are historically and regionally incorrect with their surroundings...

[asharpe]

Well, we all seem to agree that most Chinese traditional music CDs are either collections of the same stock repertoire (with a few occasional exceptions), or they are done with a western-style "orchestra" (which in my experience, is mostly one guy with a synthesizer).

It would be great if there was a few CD labels that tried to be different; has anyone noticed any pattern of "better" CDs from a given label or artist? I'd go out of my way to hear some unusual xiao pieces, or to get even one (!) CD of hulusi that didn't have drum and bass in it.

[davidmdahl]

I have had some good luck with Hugo and Wind Records. The latter label does some New Agey stuff as well, but there is some solid gold in their traditional catalog. I have two CDs on Wind of completely solo dizi and xiao that are among my favorite CDs of any sort of music. World Music Library has some terrific CDs but their recordings are all out-of-print and expensive when you do find them.

I don't know about hulusi recordings, but will watch for something interesting. The trouble with "minority" instruments like the hulusi is that recordings tend to be contrived arrangements not stylistically true to the minority culture, and played with other instruments that do not fit the culture. The thing that bugs me about myself, is that I often like these arrangements better than field recordings of the actual minority music played in correct style. Anyway, World Music Library is probably a good source for the latter, though I don't know of a specific CD.

Best wishes,
David

[asharpe]

Thanks! I'll look around for World Music CDs. By the way, which Wind recording has totally solo xiao? That is also a rarity; the best I've found is a few solo pieces, and the rest with qin.

[davidmdahl]

That would be "Chinese Tung-Hsiao The Art of Tong Ku-Chiun" Wind Records TCD-1007. It is a first-class recording of solo xiao in a reverberant space, but no accompaniment otherwise. This allows the artistry of the player and beauty of the instrument to truly be heard.

Another terrific recording is "Pastoral Song Chinese Di and Xiao solos by Luo Shou-Cheng" Wind Records SMCD-1007. Again, the recording and performances are wonderful. I wish recordings such as these two were not so rare.

Best wishes,
David

[davidmdahl]

Oops! I mispoke a bit about the solo-ness of the Xiao CD TCD-1007. The cuts are as follows:

1 - 3 solo xiao
4 - 7 xiao with qin
8 xiao with erhu (?)
9 xiao with pipa
10 solo xiao

Even with the other instruments, the xiao is shown off beautifully and even enhanced by the contrasting duet partners.

Best wishes,

David

[Charlie Huang]

You can hear a few xiao solos (improvisations) as well as duets with qin on Li Xiangting's "Tangren Siyi", and his recent "Songren Ciyi".

[davidmdahl]

What label are the Li Xiangting CDs on and where are they available from?

Thanks.

Best wishes,

David

[asharpe]

Thanks for the clarification about TCD-1007, David. That's one of the CDs that I have. I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same CD. I agree it is a very good CD.

About Li Xiangting: His site, www.chineseculture.net/wangfei/lxt/index.html, while providing really
short snippets of music, does not say where to purchase it.You can buy 'Selected Essays of the Guqin', by Li Xiangting, though. On a whim, I went to one of the links, and discovered that the Guqin Association store has some of his CDs; alas, apparently not the ones with him playing xiao (this is a guqin site after all).

[davidmdahl]

The chineseculture.net website lists some interesting xiao CDs. Are there any gems among them?

Best wishes,

David

[Charlie Huang]

davidmdahl said:

What label are the Li Xiangting CDs on and where are they available from?

Thanks.

Best wishes,

David

Tangren Shiyi is already available on CCN, find it in the guqin section, it will be called something like 'collection of extemporizing works of qin and xiao' or something like that. Its published by Poloarts: POLO NMS-10021-2

Songren Ciyi is only available in China at the moment. Same publisher: POLO NMS-10090-2

[asharpe]

Regarding if there are any good CDs at chineseculture.net, I was trying to remember why I decided I wouldn't buy from them, then I realized why. They have the exact 3 CD set of dizi tutorial VCDs (Dizi Tutorial VCD by Zhang Weiliang) that I bought new from an Asian Cultural Fair around here for $5.00 (five dollars), they have for $39.00, on sale from $55.00! I couldn't believe it. Either they bought a boatload of them at a very bad price, or they are making far too much on them. Anyway, when I saw that, I decided that I could find CDs elsewhere.

I agree, though, that a few of the xiao CDs look good, and they are not too expensive... Xiao solos by Zhang Weiliang, and Dai Shuhong Qin & Xiao and Cheng Chong Xun Xiao (although that one is $18.99). I don't know how much they charge for shipping; I couldn't find it on their site. They do have, however, this rather dire warning: We shall have no liability to anyone for incidental or consequential damages or any other liability, loss or damage arising out of or related to the merchandise sold. All merchandise is sold "AS IS". We make no warranty as to the performance or suitability of any merchandise sold.

Makes you wonder what recourse you'd have if you bought an expensive instrument from them (or even a CD) and it didn't work.Who on the Internet has a non-return policy like this?

[davidmdahl]

I don't know about China, but CDs and VCDs from Vietnam are typically only a few dollars each. In the USA, however, CDs average $15. CCN is probably just trying to charge a little less than the going rate for USA prices. If they charged a lot less, people might think the CDs and VCDs were no good. <g> You get what you pay for, you know.

Their shipping charge, as I recall is rather high, and I am not fond of their non-return policy. As I recall though, their feedback rating on Ebay is not bad, so they must at least be doing what they promise.

Wind Records (www.wind-records.com.tw) was pleasant to order from, although I did it through email rather than a secure web-based from. Another site, www.clippershipshop.com, lists some very interesting CDs, and I may order something eventually. Unfortunately there are no sample clips on Clippership. Wind Records has an abundance of clips.

Best wishes,

David

[Charlie Huang]

CCN does sell things a bit expensive, but they do discount for regular returning customers. I bought a qin, a table and a lot of stuff, like qinpus and CDs from them with no problem. However, they do seem to forget you if you haven't been buying for some time... which is a bit piss taking.

The price of their qinpus (with the exception of Shenqi Mipu, which is just about right) are very expensive. Wuzhizhai Qinpu costed $130 from them, but cost around £50 ($90-100) from a UK site: www.hanshan.com. Also, I could get Deyintang Qinpu from Hanshan Tang for a meer £35 (around $50), where CCN offered it to me for $120!!! Of course, it could be a better printed or bounded edition (like Shenqi Mipu has a 'standard' and a 'better quality' edition) but I doubt that unless its a very small volume number and very important, then it will be always a 'standard' print edition.

[davidmdahl]

If the prices for CDs and books on CCN are not exactly bargains, what about the instruments? They boldly claim that the quality of their instruments is not easily found anywhere near the prices they charge. Does this fit with your experience? High quality Chinese instruments are difficult to find, and it would be helpful to know if they accurately describe the quality of their instruments.

Thanks.

Best wishes,

David

[Charlie Huang]

Just found out that Hanshan Tang sell Qinxue Congshu for a meer £90 ($150), whilst CCN is selling it for over £230!!!!

Anyways, the quality of their instruments (as far as qins are concerned) are good. I'm sure the instrument fits (in some ways) the description they give out, i.e. if they say they use old wood, then I have no reason to believe they will decieve me in that. I know that I will be getting a good instrument. I was a bit taken back when Jim Binkley said my qin was 'factory made'... But Julian Joseph said it wasn't since he thought the quality wasn't of a factory made qin (like my friends was).

From my experience, I would trust CCN on their instruments (though I quite hate their labelling of 'elegant', 'ancient' or whatever on this and that). They do have NAGA and Wang Fei or other instrumentalists and experts select it (if you chose a selected model) and you can be sure that they are good if not very good instruments. It is the best place to buy instruments if you are a serious player rather than a tourist. If you go to China, you can get very good instruments, but only if you find the correct place, have the right connections, know the masters or players of that instrument for them to advise and select it for you. Really time consuming, but that is probably the best way of getting high quality instruments.

[davidmdahl]

I have the connections for getting Vietnamese instruments, but not Chinese, so CCN may be my best bet. There is another source in San Francisco at www.melodyofchina.com. I got a dizi from them that was a disappointment, but the erhu's look good.

It is almost too bad that Asian instruments are so beautiful. They look so good on the wall that even non-musicians want them. This makes it harder for musicians to find true instruments rather than decorations. <g>

Best wishes,

David

[Charlie Huang]

I wanted to buy a pipa from CCN, but luckily I know Cheng Yu who's a well known pipa player here in the UK with links to Beijing. Her father is also a pipa player living in Beijing that advises instrument makers. She told me that she could get one for me for a cheap price, plus I know that it would be a good one. So luckily I can get a good deal.

As you said, CCN is probably the best and safest bet at the moment.

[Charlie Huang]

This is the price list of qinpus CCN offered me:

Qin Xue Ru Men; 3 vol. $89
Shi Yi Xian Guan Qinpu; 1 vol. $48
Chun Cao Tang Qinpu; 2 vol. $89
Qin Xue Lian Yao; 5 vol. $119
Deyin Tang Qinpu; 4 vol. $115.00
Jiao An Qinpu; 3 or 4 vol. $75.
Qin Xue Cong Shu; 6 or 8 vol. $248

[davidmdahl]

Yes, knowing someone who can choose for you is the best approach. I got my (Vietnamese) dan bau from master Pham Duc Thanh which far surpasses any other dan bau I have found on my own. It is even better when you can find someone to bring it from Asia. They need to be pretty good friends to be willing to accompany a large instrument though. <g>

If I wanted a pipa, Risheng Wang, husband of Liu Fang, might be a good contact.

David

[paulv]

First, many thanks to Cardcaptor Charlie for setting up this forum. The forum at CCN seemed to be very inactive for a long time.

I've been playing erhu for several months now (a very long way from being an expert!!) and been checking out many websites for trad. Chinese music and instruments. I agree that the CCN prices are extremely high, especially when I see the same items in China (my wife is Chinese so we go there every year to visit her family) costing much less. Music books, CDs, tutorial VCDs are only a few US dollars compared to CCN's prices -- but I guess they have to send someone over to China to bring these things back to sell. I also noticed while in China, it was difficult to find traditional music CDs -- they all seem to have the "staple" tunes on them for the respective instrument.

I agree with all the other people on this forum -- even going to China to buy an instrument doesn't mean you will get a high quality instrument. I saw many erhus in stores and they were medium to low quality. A person really needs a contact to help. Also for erhus, the gov't is only allowing a person to take 2 erhus out of the country at a time (due to the python snakeskin issue).

Another headache with all these acoustical instruments is that the instrument can sound different even if made by the same maker and using the same materials.

Good luck to all of us in our pursuit of traditional Chinese music !!