jian zi pu question

[Si]

Just trying to play this piece - xian weng cao

Does anyone have it on mp3 so i can here it?

And i cant seem to find out the meaning of the jian zi pu for a number all by its self (in this case I have a wu and liu).is it left or right hand and what finger. just the number with no other markings...

C:\Documents and Settings\SIMON\Desktop\jian zi pu.jpg[/img] i am trying to insert an image of the lone characters that i cant understand - can you see it?

cheers

[Si]

can i email this small file to somebody....... cos this forum does not seem to have uploading and i dont have any space as yet!

[blueharp]

I play the piece and I think I know what you are talking about.

When there are just numbers by themselves it generally refers to a string. The fingering information carries over from previous notation. Look right before the stand alone numbers and you'll see a combination fingering:

Left thumb presses at the 9th hui
Right middle finger plays gou on string 4

I believe it would be read:

"da zhi jiu gou san"

You will need to do little "hops" to press the thumb at position 9 of strings 5 and 6 while playing gou.

Later in the piece it shows up again slightly different:

Left ring finger presses at the 10th hui
Right middle finger plays gou on string 5

I think the reading is:

"ming zhi shi gou wu"

You will need to do little "hops" to press the ring finger at position 10 of strings 6 and 7 while playing gou.

It is waaaay easier to show how it is done!

I am not aware of an mp3.

BTW John Thompson has a version in both staff and jianzi-pu. Are you using that?

[Si]

A 1000 xie xie ni's

Yes I am using the Thopson one - thats all I have!

The other ancient runes that I have not been able to find a meaning for are on the first line of this piece. I think one of them is repeat something but its not like the ones I printed from the web pages.

Do you know the ones?

[Si]

These hops with the thumb are difficult cos my left thumb makes such a big space when stopping a string. Seems it has to be a few cm (1 inch) or so in size.

Should it be smaller?

[blueharp]

I am not quite sure I understand the question.

The "hops" should be as small and quick as possible. Think of lifting the thumb only enough to move to the next string - a few millimeters.

In fact, you can press 2 strings at once so you only have to "hop" once.

I was just contemplating those symbols last night! ;D

From what I can gather it means "repeat what came before".

I can't find any reference to the symbols as used - I only know them as a combination of characters "zai zuo". The first character used is the simplified "zai" the second the simplified "zuo".

[Si]

Thanks,

What I was wondring was that the thumb stopping the string seems to be bigand get in the way of other strings. Wondered if its something i am not doing correctly?

Cheers

[Charlie Huang]

Erm... god, you've confused me as well! How can the thumb get in the way of strings? I'll have to look at JT's site before I can advise further.

[Si]

Well when you stop down with the left thumb it is flat against the board and quite big, isnt it?

Compared to a finger tip anyway!

[Charlie Huang]

Are you saying that, say, you press on string five with your thumb, the tip touches string four? Or that the body of the thumb covers string six? For the former, your thumb tip shouldn't really touch string four, it should be bent at the joint (or, you're using the point at the root of the nail); for the latter, that's how it's suppose to be during play, but it shouldn't rub incesantly which is caused by putting too much weight at the joint rather than the connecting point.

As for the 'zaizuo', it has two interparatations depending on your view. There is normally a bent line like this: ¬ above the previous phrase, and that means, repeat once from there (till the "o" full stop). If there is no ¬ then you should repeat the whole phrase (i.e. after the "o" mark of the previous phrase (or if there isn't a previous phrase, the beginning, although it would prabably say "congtou zaizuo") where it tells you to zaizuo). Then there is this 'er zuo', and 'san zuo'. Depending on your interperatation, it could mean play that bit, then play again twice/thrice; OR play that bit twice/thrice. I suppose if they add the word 'zai' to it, it would mean the former; whilst without it, it would mean the latter.

[sleepy]

blueharp said:

The "hops"; should be as small and quick as possible. Think of lifting the thumb only enough to move to the next string - a few millimeters.
In fact, you can press 2 strings at once so you only have to "hop" once.

If I haven't forgotten this left thumb string switching technique is called "gao guo". You don't really let the thumb leave the strings and certainly there's no "hopping" movement whether big or small. It's also not to let the thumb press on 2 strings at the same time, but switch the points of contact (from the right edge near thumbnail, to the base of the small joint), as you move from one string to the next while manipulating the thumb's angle at the small joint, much like what CCC has said.

It's easier to demonstrate than to explain in words.

[blueharp]

Thank you for correcting my clumsy attempt at explaining the technique!

[blueharp]

The way that zaizuo is used in the piece Xiangweng Cao is unusual I think. That's why it is confusing. The character is "pulled" apart with the "zai" portion coming first, then the "zuo" portion.

The staff notation indicates that the first two notes are repeated - each note with a portion of the "zaizuo" beneath it.

That's why it is confusing.

[Si]

Thanks for the help.

I am realising that this jian zi pu is more complex than i first thought. Mainly cos in the Guqin yin tune there are jian zi pu with what look like 4 or 5 characters piled together in a column. How to understand that?

Oh dear.............

[Charlie Huang]

4/5 characters piled together?

[blueharp]

Deep Breaths!

It only seems overwhelming right now. jianzi-pu is quite logical.

Remember left to right, top to bottom.

Is there any way to post the character in question?

[Charlie Huang]

Erm... write it in wenzi-pu?

[Si]

I am looking at page 197 of guqin qiji.9th note.......

Its not the usual jian zi pu. This is a column starting at the top with shang, 10, rou. But rou to where?

Oh its ok - im too new to all of this.

Wish we had an uploading function then i could show you all.

Basically all the tunes in this book are to tough for my starting level. So I will not bother you any more - I realy need some simple drills or excersizes to practice.

[Charlie Huang]

Rou? Isn't that vibrato? And I thought the 9th note is in the harmonics section? (sorry, don't have the book with me at work to check)

[sleepy]

syburn said:

I am looking at page 197 of guqin qiji.9th note.......
Its not the usual jian zi pu. This is a column starting at the top with shang, 10, rou. But rou to where?
Oh its ok - im too new to all of this.
Wish we had an uploading function then i could show you all.
Basically all the tunes in this book are to tough for my starting level. So I will not bother you any more - I realy need some simple drills or excersizes to practice.

First you've got to read the scores not as single notes but a series of notes which make up a musical sentence. The one you've mentioned is a continuation from the previous note, and the symbol tells you to slide the left middle finger from beyond the 13th hui towards the right while plucking "gou" on 1st string with right hand. As your left middle finger reaches the 10th hui, than do the "rou" around the 10th hui.

I wouldn't attempt to learn too many jian-zi pu symbols in the beginning and then feel overwhelmed by it all. Take one step at a time, just practice what your teacher lets you cos your're bound to learn new stuff each time you learn a new piece.

[Si]

Yeah wise words. I have put this book away now. I will wait for my next lesson and try to get some practices to do from him.

Cheers

[Si]

Is there a place were i can down load jian zi pu character files into my computer. Like jpeg files or somethine?

[Charlie Huang]

What for?

[Si]

I want to make a easy reference sheet of all the jian zi pu characters - organised easily so i can see them in front of me with out having to shuffle paper. Maybe with some visual aid to remind me of what it means.

thuoght i would make a nice looking one in photoshop, maybe other beginners will find it useful.

[Charlie Huang]

Yushan Wushi Qinpu basically has a list of notation and their descriptions. If I was you, I'd e-mail Julian Joseph as he has bmps of most jianzi-pu which he can e-mail you. Go to my article, find his web link, his e-mail address is on his website.

Alternatively, go to Jim Binkley's site, has a list of notation pics.