Speed and dexterity

[guzhenglover]

Dear fellow guzheng enthusiasts!

This new thread has to do with the previous topic on the issue of dexterity which I followed with great interest. I have a question in relation to fast passages in compositions. In Liuyan River and even Yu Zhou Chang Wan, how do we know when fast is fast enough? I mean often we come across renditions by performers - including guzheng masters - who show this amazing ability to whiz through fast passages with apparent ease and control. While this ability is indeed admirable, I still wonder why a given passage has to be so fast. Who says that a fast passage needs to be raced through, and whose idea was it to begin with that a fast passage has to be as fast as performer X plays it? Often we don't see speed e.g. metronomic indications as to how fast a passage should go, so why can't we take a less hasty pace?

And here's a related question - in the previous thread on dexterity, someone compared guzheng technique to piano technique. That was actually a very interesting point for me, being a concert pianist. Personally I've found my pianistic skills to be an advantage at times and a hindrance at other times. There are certainly things that both techniques have in common as well as differ which I've discovered. My question is simply whether someone who's proficient with both instruments could actually pinpoint or summarise for us how piano technique could best be adopted for guzheng playing, particularly when it comes to making oneself more dexterous on the guzheng. Sometimes I must admit that it's really frustrating to think that I couldn't play a guzheng passage faster whereas I could play a comparable passage on the piano without any trouble and perhaps even twice faster.

So really I have two separate but related questions on speed and dexterity - does any of you have an opinion about these?

Guzhenglover

[carol]

Newer songs like Liuyang River do have speed reference . The fast part of Liuyang River in my book says 108. For more traditional pieces, I think it's up to how you create the atmopshere and build-up to make people feel your music is good.

I did have some experience in piano, no where near proficient at all. I think the pluckings are very different, tremelo and bending are new technique. But the method to train and build up the speed and dexterity is the same. It takes long hours of finger drill practice with metronome. If you are professional in piano, you probably can write some finger drills for guzheng yourself.

[davidmdahl]

As carol wrote, there are tunes which are expected to be performed at a specific tempo, or at least within a relatively narrow range. The primary rule however is that a performance must be musical. There is no sense playing faster than one can manage. A tune played under control at a slower tempo will be more effective than when played out-of-control or sloppy. At the other end of the scale, it is a vanity of the musician to play overly fast simply because it is possible. Some performances call attention to the player rather than the music, and the music suffers.

I played the piano for many years. I think that this study led to connections between my brain and fingers that make playing zither a lot easier than if I was starting completely fresh at the ripe age of 48. My fingers are also used to moving independently and with flexibility. Simply knowing how to practice and learn an instrument will help with guzheng. The piano is such a complete instrument, encompassing melody, harmony and rhythm, that it is an excellent launching pad for the study of other instruments.

The disadvantage of a keyboard mentality is its orientation to Western music. It can take some effort to break out of the rigid tuning model of a piano. Familiarity with solfege can help.

Best wishes,

David

[guzhenglover]

What insight already - thanks Carol and David. Hopefully many more fellow guzheng lovers will have things to say about these questions as well. My response to a number of points is as follow:

(1) I agree entirely that, whatever the speed may be, at the end of the day the focus should be on the music rather than technical showmanship. And how true it is that "a tune played under control at a slower tempo will be more effective than when played out-of-control or sloppy". I guess my concerns with finding the right speed and tempo for fast passages have originated from my preparations for guzheng exams. While a fast passage may still be played with a lot conviction at a speed lower than usual i.e. performances by masters, would the examiner think otherwise? I mean, would the examiner give the candidate a lower score if a fast passage isn't as fast as what one might usually expect?

On the piano, examiners are receptive to different speeds and tempos so long as (a) the rendition has musical conviction, and (b) the speed/tempo fits in with the context and historical background (etc.) of the composition. Examiners will not accept a "slower" speed if it's clear to him/her that the candidate lacks the technique to take the "appropriate" tempo. And oh, it's important to know what we mean by "appropriate" - for many if not most piano compositions, there is kind of an acceptable speed range that trained piano ears know.

Should we conclude that the situation is similar with guzheng compositions?

(2) It's interesting that you should suggest coming up with finger drills for guzheng, Carol - indeed that's something which I've done, so I'd say that that's a great tip for other pianists out there who are learning the guzheng. What I am trying to achieve with the drills that I've come up with for myself are basically to overcome those problems associated with transferring piano techniques to the guzheng that prove to be of help at all when I play the guzheng (and I'll tell you some of these which I've discovered to be disadvantages in point (3) below);

(3) Some of the advantages from having piano technique when learning the guzheng include, I think, dexterity, indenpendence, flexibility and strength of the fingers, coordination of both hands, familiarity with the musical notation, and a ready understanding of the theories and/or reasonings behind doing certain things on the guzheng e.g. why I need to press the string harder going from 6 to 7 than going from 3 to 4; why an ad libitum passage should be tackled in a certain manner, etc.;

According to my own experience thus far on the guzheng, I think the disadvantages include, as David pointed out, the pianist's mode of thinking and his/her orientation to Western music, which may take some effort to break out of - even with familiarity with solfege. The other disadvantages, I've discovered, are a lot more subtle. For instance, on the piano, one is used to use different joints and different touch for different kinds of music. And weight, speed of attack, thrust etc. of the fingers/hands/arms all play a role. On the guzheng - so it seems - one should generally keep everything loosened and concentrating on building strength for the small finger joints. The guzheng player as I understand it should try and avoid unnecessary movements of the fingers in order to have more dexterity and faster movements for the fingers. While the pianist should also try to avoid unnecessary movements, one still can say that, in general - and in comparison with the guzheng - there are more movements of the fingers, hands and the arms used by a pianist than by a guzheng player. And while strong fingers are also essential for a pianist, that strength is not confined to the small finger joints alone (though different "schools" of piano playing may beg to differ on this point). Thus I myself have had to remind myself when playing the guzheng to cut back on finger and hand movements as well as trying to keep everything loose/relaxed and giving strength mainly to the small finger joints.

What do other pianist cum guzheng player think? Do you agree/disagree? Have you any other advantages/disadvantages you've discovered?

(4) David mentioned that there are tunes which are expected to be performed at a specific tempo, or at least within a relatively narrow range. This I can understand, esp. since many so-called guzheng compositions used to be folktunes or passed down from player to player as improvisations. But one still wonders how we as guzheng players would work out what's "expected" of them so that s/he can decide for him/herself how best to interpret a piece (not least the fast passages). Maybe that's why a forum such as this one really helps, as it let's us ask questions, share opinions and learn new ideas etc. I also do a lot of "homework" myself by reading, listening, etc. But is there really not a better way of learning what's "expected"? What's the situation like on the gayagum, the dan bau, the mongolian zither, or the koto?

I am so sorry that my response has become soooooooo long-winded....!

[davidmdahl]

It has been a very long time since I have played music to be evaluated by an examiner or judge. My goal is to be musically expressive enough to engage and delight my audience. When you are playing for a judge, you want to do the same thing for perhaps more critical ears. If you choose to take a slower tempo that is usually expected, that is certainly a risk, but you can mitigate that risk by adding more drama to the music.

I have a recording of Sai Ma (Horse Race) on erhu that is not performed at the breakneck speed that is most common. Interestingly the slower speed allows space for more expression and drama in the music, so the end result is more effective than when the performance relies on speed alone for excitement.

Regarding a better way of learning what is "expected", that way is the basis for what is meant by "traditional". To learn to play koto, kayagum, guzheng, dan bau, or dan tranh traditionally means of course to learn to play within a tradition from a teacher who learned to play within the tradition from his teacher. You are unlikely to learn to play within a tradition by yourself from a method or book of tunes, since so much is not written down.

Related to learning a tradition from a teacher is listening and playing what you hear from recordings and live performances. The traditional approach to learning music all over the world focuses on learning tunes by ear rather than from sheet music. When you truly have the style in your head you will know when the music is right, and the examiner will be delighted.

Best wishes,

David

[carol]

I think the small finger joints are used mainly in fast passage where you really want to speed up you have to limit your other movements. On other parts, different muscle and joints are used to provide different tones.

[guzhenglover]

A question that comes to my mind is, do harpists and guitarists also have to learn to use their fingers in a similar way as they try and improve on their speed and dexterity? I wonder if the differences in the spacing of the strings and also the setup of the strings between different instruments (i.e. different zithers, the harp and the guitar etc.) have something to do with this?