small qin zheng: ~15 strings

[kewlpuff]

Hi everyone, i'm new to this site and would some advice on how to get myself a good quality, small qin zheng. i want this small zheng for portability and convenience's sake but don't want to compromise the sound quality. I've searched some sites but it seems the smallest sized zhengs being offered still have 21 strings and these small zhengs are of lower quality than regular full sized zhengs. any ideas guys? thanks!!!

[davidmdahl]

If you don't mind metal strings, you might consider a 17-string Vietnamese dan tranh. They are reasonably small and can sound great. Not long ago, 16 strings was the standard, so you also might find someone to make one of those.

Best wishes,

David

[carol]

Check the 13-stringed mini guzheng in "Make Your Own Zheng Workshop"
www.hkco.org/eng/archive_pe_29th_18_eng.asp

Is that something you want? I think they give out for free to all participants. Maybe you can call Dunhuang and ask to order one.

[davidmdahl]

Lunlun Zou used to sell a small traveling guzheng on her website. I don't see it listed now, but you might check with her to see if it is still available or if she has other suggestions. I have found Cadenza to be pretty resourceful as well.

www.guzheng.idv.hk/en/index.php
www.cadenzamusic.biz/

Best wishes,

David

[davidmdahl]

carol said:

Check the 13-stringed mini guzheng in "Make Your Own Zheng Workshop"
www.hkco.org/eng/archive_pe_29th_18_eng.asp

Wow, that is cool! Wouldn't that be fun to do?

Best wishes,

David

[kewlpuff]

thanks for the links everyone! yes! actually, i saw the make your own zheng workshop and kept reprimanding for why i'm not living in hong kong!! i wonder if any members went to the zheng festival in HKG! here are some questions....

i took a look at lun lun's website but the products seem to be a bit overpriced! and then part of her site links to i think her husband's site peter kahl who also looks like he makes guzhengs too. is he making the guzhengs that she sells? how can i get in touch with dunhuang? Where are you able to buy a tranh from? are you able to play a tranh though in the same way you play a zheng in terms of fingering etc? from friends, i heard that the way you play the instrument is different! thank everyone for your help!!!

[davidmdahl]

I have no personal experience purchasing guzhengs from any source, so I cannot comment on the cost/value on Lunlun's site. The guzhengs listed on her site were not made by Peter Kahl. His instrument is listed on his own website.

As a general comment regarding instrument pricing, it can be difficult to objectively compare prices, since a higher price can include more services. I have often been willing to pay higher prices to purchase from a source that was more selective and guaranteed satisfaction. You may pay less if you order direct from the factory, but you might get a better instrument if someone chooses from among a batch.

I purchased my 21 string dan tranh from Nguyen Vinh Bao of Saigon at a price twice what is usual. The sound quality is quite a bit better than the typical tranh. The Vietnamese tranh technique is indeed different from guzheng technique, but it should be possible to play a dan tranh in Chinese style as would be done on a cheng (wire-strung guzheng). The dan tranh is of much lighter construction than a guzheng. I have seen photos of cheng's which look very much like an old-style dan tranh.

I hope that Carol and others will correct whatever I have wrong or misleading.

The link for Vinh Bao is below. If you are serious about other lower cost options for a dan tranh, let me know and I will dig up information.

vinhbao.theonly1.net/Instrument.htm

Best wishes,

David

[carol]

Hi David:

Thanks for the link. I just had the chance to listen to the Dan Tranh Sound of Vinh Bao. Is that played on 17-stringed? It sounds quite different from dan tranh music I've heard. It's much deeper and solid. I enjoy it a lot. That's the tone I like from a steel-stringed. Others I've heard sounds more high pitch and scattering.

I actually have a Dan Tranh player customer couple weeks ago. She came from San Jose down here to buy a guzheng, because there are no good dan tranh available. She has 3 already, from 16-25 strings, but all of bad quality. According to her, a good dan tranh needs to be custom made. She bought a 21-steel stringed guzheng, because that one is the best steel-stringed she've heard. That one is pretty deep and solid, too. Is that the kind of sound to be classified as good Dan Tranh?

[carol]

It's very difficult to judge an instrument just from the price tag on it. All stores have different standard in prcing their instruments. There are people selling crappy basic model near $1000, and people selling professional model at a lower price. If you just compare instruments by price, you would mistakenly think the crappy one is better than the professional one.

Thanks to the internet, the pricing is more clear and standardized nowadays. Baisc ones are below 3000 yuan, intermediate ones are from 3000-5000 yuan, 5000 up are professional ones. If paying more than 10,000 yuan, it's almost guaranteed to be the best concert grade.

I think selection is important, and most people would want to pay more for selected ones. However, when the "more" means 2-3 times more than MSRP, I would recommend you paying the same amount of moeny to the factory and get the model that's 2-3 grades higher than the lower model that's selected by dealer.
Since even you are so unlucky and get the worst one from the higher model, it's still better than the best one of the lower model being selected by the dealer.
Most factories have very precise steps in grading their instruments nowadays, that the chance of a lower grade one with better sound is quite impossible.

[davidbadagnani]

carol said:

That one is pretty deep and solid, too. Is that the kind of sound to be classified as good Dan Tranh?

I wouldn't classify the sound of a dan tranh as deep and solid, because the wire strings are pretty thin and you use sharp metal banjo-style fingerpicks. The sound is crystalline and a bit sharp, with a lot of sustain and ring. On the ones I've seen the low strings aren't wound, making them sound a bit twangier than the low strings on a Chinese 16- or 18-metal-string zheng. But the low strings aren't really the focus of the playing anyway, in the way they are in modern zheng music. I agree that the dan tranh playing on the Vinh Bao CD is different from what one normally hears; to me it sounds as if his strings are very thin, and under very little tension.

My teacher, Phong Nguyen, got some really good kiri (Japanese paulownia) when he was living in Japan about 30 years ago. He had the wood shipped to Vinh Bao, who made his first (and only) dan tranh out of what was essentially koto wood. He never met Phong until last year, and remembered making the instrument. The wood has interesting asymmetrical grain patterns like you see on a koto, and Vinh Bao made it larger than usual, without as much of a taper at the end. Thus, this experimental instrument has a bigger and more full, though still not quite bass-y, sound.

Dr. Phong tells me that he participated in scientific measurement trials to determine which of the East Asian zithers had the longest ring time. Maybe this was at the University of Washington. His dan tranh proved to have a longer sustain than the guzheng, koto, and kayagum that were tried.

[davidmdahl]

There are some pretty crummy dan tranhs around that are really only suitable for hanging on the wall. Vinh Bao will only sell to musicians, and his instruments are really in a class by themselves. This is not to say his are the only good dan tranhs, but they do have more ring and body to the tone than many I have heard and played. The VB dan tranh I have has taller and more massive bridges and thicker strings than is common on the garden variety tranh. I don't remember if this is true of the 17 string tranh, but my 21-stringer does have two wound strings in the bass. David B. is right that the "wound sound" is not typical of the dan tranh. Tranhs with more than 16 strings are a relatively new development, and the traditional tunes fit quite well within 16 or 17 strings.

Regarding the picks for dan tranh, there are two types that are common. The steel picks that David B. mentioned are the type I use. Other players may use toroise-shell picks. Either type can sound good. I use the steel since they are easier to adjust.

In my experience it is best to special order Vietnamese instruments from a maker who supplies musicians, or from a musician who has the connections to good makers. So many instruments are made for the tourist industry that it is necessary to be very careful. I can assist with contact information for good sources besides Vinh Bao if anyone is interested. I should add that I do not deal in instruments of any sort and do not take any kickbacks for referrals.

By the way, I am not sure which tranh Vinh Bao plays in the samples on his website, but I think he usually plays a 19 string tranh.

Best wishes,

David

[kewlpuff]

lol!! somehow the topic kind of strayed since i last checked... eeh... hmmm... i think after reading all of the postings (thanks to all of you who posted!!) that i'd still like to go with a small zheng.... it seems like unless i can get one custom made, it's not quite possible to really get them otherwise? all ancient zhengs were of very little string. altho they might not have sounded as nice as the new zheng styles now, i wish some of those have been preserved in production!

[YouLanFengChune]

Hi!

From Singapore, we can get Child Guzhengs, a Travel size guzheng under 1.3 metress (standard guzheng is 1.67-1.69).

email me at [e-mail] if you're interested.

[YouLanFengChune]

There are also child-toy types, under 80cm, 15 strings. Plays a tune well, but sounds... well, you can't compare a strad to a 1/32 violin.

[davidbadagnani]

I think the smaller sizes (16- or 18- string) of steel-string guzheng are still used as a beginner's instrument in Taiwan, and it's still used in the Chaozhou solo guzheng repertoire (an amazing tradition). There are smaller versions of these made for beginners, and some of them sound good. If you amplify it this can make up for deficiencies in volume of the instrument.

[davidbadagnani]

Phong just got a set of those tall bridges from Vinh Bao and installed them, but they just don't look or feel right to him. Maybe Vinh Bao wanted a bigger and bigger sound over the years. The most traditional bridges are shorter and have a sharp point.

[davidmdahl]

davidbadagnani said:

Phong just got a set of those tall bridges from Vinh Bao and installed them, but they just don't look or feel right to him. Maybe Vinh Bao wanted a bigger and bigger sound over the years. The most traditional bridges are shorter and have a sharp point.

I recently tried a set of Vinh Bao bridges on my 17-string dan tranh, but they did not fit well. There is a bit more real estate on a Vinh Bao tranh to accommodate the larger bridges. A friend of mine has a 17-string Vinh Bao tranh and the bridges have bone at the peak where the strings rest, as is common with guzheng bridges. All of the Vinh Bao tranhs have the box on the right side as well. It seems likely that he is taking at least some inspiration from the guzheng.

Best wishes,

David

[carol]

I'm still listening to Vinh Bao's sound clips this morning. His instrument sounds so attractive from high notes to bass. I'll definetely get one in the future!!!

I'm posting my favorite steel-stringed piece "Water Lotus" by Fan Weiqing
www.chinesezither.net/files/lotusoutofwater.wma

This piece is played on a Tianyi 18 steel-stringed made by Mr. Wang Jianchun. It's the same model as my zitan steel-stringed using spruce board instead of any paulownia. It also sounds deep and solid.

[davidmdahl]

carol said:

I'm posting my favorite steel-stringed piece "Water Lotus" by Fan Weiqing
www.chinesezither.net/files/lotusoutofwater.wma

This piece is played on a Tianyi 18 steel-stringed made by Mr. Wang Jianchun. It's the same model as my zitan steel-stringed using spruce board instead of any paulownia. It also sounds deep and solid.

Indeed! That is lovely. The music and style is definitely Chinese of course, but I hear techniques that are common on dan tranh. Do the steel strings make possible more expressive techniques?

The only steel-stringed quzheng CD I have is "The Chinese Cheng: Ancient & Modern" performed by Liang Tsai-Ping. How does that rate?

Best wishes,

David

[carol]

Liang Tsai-Ping is the most respected zheng player in Taiwan. Many consider him as the founder of Taiwanese guzheng music. I met him when I was a kid, and he was already 90 yr. old, still playing zheng. In general, his music doesn't belong to any school. He has his own style that balanced with his guqin background.

Yes, I think steel strings are more expressive. I don't know much about Dan Tranh music. Based on the Vinh Bao sound clips, I feel that the left hand bending is quite different from steel-stringed guzheng. In Tranh, heavy bendings are used that make them part of the music notes. It sounds more similar to kayagum's bending. In the steel-stringed guzheng, the bending is used mainly as an extension of a note, which is more guqin like.

[davidmdahl]

carol said:

Yes, I think steel strings are more expressive. I don't know much about Dan Tranh music. Based on the Vinh Bao sound clips, I feel that the left hand bending is quite different from steel-stringed guzheng. In Tranh, heavy bendings are used that make them part of the music notes. It sounds more similar to kayagum's bending. In the steel-stringed guzheng, the bending is used mainly as an extension of a note, which is more guqin like.

I have several friends who play both dan tranh and guzheng. I will have to ask them about the similarities and differences. I remember than one of them mentioned that he considered playing dan tranh at a high level much more difficult than guzheng, probably due to the left hand techniques of expression. I don't think he has any experience on steel-string guzheng however.

Best wishes,

David

[davidbadagnani]

carol said:

I'm still listening to Vinh Bao's sound clips this morning. His instrument sounds so attractive from high notes to bass.

I think some of the sound you hear might be enhanced by close miking (though I'm sure the instrument is great). I wonder how he can still make instruments at his current age of c. 88 (b. 1918).

The steel-string zheng clip you forwarded is beautiful. Do you have any clips of Chaozhou-style zheng to share? That style is amazing -- Han Mei recently played some at my university and it wowed everyone.

[carol]

I have no doubt the miking would affect the sound. I got the impression from the clip that the Vinh Bao instrument sound is deep and solid and clear in general. I'm more impressed by how the high notes are as sounding as the bass notes from the same recording. Since the instrument covers about 4 octaves in range, it's very difficult to make both good high notes and bass notes. In guzheng, I've often seen one way or the other. The best Scarlet Bird still has a few dry high notes, and the best Dunhuang only has mediocre bass.
So far, I've only seen Tianyi's Mr. Wang that are capable of keeping both qualities in the same instrument.

Usually, with that kind of bass it produces from the sound clips, I would expect the high notes to be more of mere string sound with no echo from the sound box. But. .. Yeah, that's a master work!

Actually, there is also a Chaozhou piece in the same album of Fan Weiqing. However, I've asked my friend to pull off the "Water Lotus" from that CD already, and it's embarrased to ask her to pull off another song. Sorry, I think I'm a computer idiot.

The "Water Lotus" is a Hakka song, which is similar to Chaozhou.

[Tiffany]

Kewlpuff,

The 15-stringed guzheng was an old Jiejiang body before the S-shape 21-stringed guzheng was invented. Most other smaller guzhengs were typically 16 strings. These days, it's probably more useful to get something bigger than 13-string because you won't be able to play any songs. The smallest you want to go for is 16-string. But it's more common to see student or children-sized 18-string guzheng which is very small comparing to the standard 63" long full-size 21-string guzheng. I used to have an 18-stringed (steel string) guzheng that is about 10" wide by 42" long. I changed them to nylon. It's still sound very good for that size. I think you can play most basic songs with that size. It's very light-weight and transportable on airport as checked buggages, basically fit in any car or bus.

If you want a guzheng, you should stick with a guzheng. Even though the other Asian zithers are similar, they are different enough to make playing guzheng songs inconvenient. A dan trahnh, koto or kayagum is quite different from a guzheng. That includes the distant being each string, the type of strings, the height of the yueshan, the number and location of sound holes in the back board and most important the critical dimension or what I called the 'specification' of the zither itself. These factors all contribute to the overall sound of the instrument. In my experience, the height of the yueshan is critical to performance properly. You may play a guzheng piece with another Asian zither, it just won't sound the same because even guzheng came in slightly different dimensions and form for each 'school' during the old days. Now guzheng happens to be standardized in dimension because most contemporary pieces are Jiejiang school, but many specialized guzheng performers still prefers to use the original historic instrument to perform a respective traditional piece, in order to capture a more accurate feeling for the piece.

[kewlpuff]

Hi Tiffany, Thank you very much for your post!! It is indeed very helpful and you are right about the historical shape of the guzheng. I am very interested in getting a similar zheng as your small steel string one. Where may I ask did you purchase yours? Thank you for writing!