Guzheng's price

[Bryan]

ii noticed what YouLanFengChune said bout guzheng's price in Cadenza being cheaper than in Singapore and ii tried to compare e price

ii compared the double cranes to the suns' price in Singapore wich ii bought for $450 in Shangyin Music School in singapore dollars and Cadenza sold it for US$480

ii calculated the price difference...

In 1999...
S$1.69 is equivalent to US$1.70

Let X be e cost of the Cadenza guzheng in Sing.dollar

X US$1.70
_ =_______
S$450 US$1.69

***

1.69x=S$765
x= $480

So...e price is about e same...

But does e guzheng from cadenza include stands and note stand? So iim comparison, iit might be true to buy from cadenza but there are still many factor's such as shipping and convenience.

Haha iim takin POA which is buisness maths. Haha iitx a course..

[Bryan]

Using lunlun zou's pricing on her website, ii will use it to standardisie guzheng's accesories price.

A pair of guzheng stands cost US$40!

Let Y be e cost of e stands in S$

Guzheng stands can be bought for $30 in singapore

Y 1.70
_ =____
$40 1.69

***

1.69Y= S$68
Y= S$40

The cost of e guzheng stands from lunlun's website in S$ is $40. Add that to e pricing of e Cadenza guzheng and e price will be $520.

[carol]

Bryan:

"Duo Crane" is just a design that doesn't refer to any specific model. There are 4-5 models with this design, but the quality and price varies.

The major difference is the backboard. The lowest model is with plywood backboard, then there is plywood with maker signature, combined piece paulowia(I think this is the model Cadenza offers. I can see the combined line on the backboard.), sigle piece paulownia, then single piece paulownia with signature.

[davidmdahl]

I am curious what photo you saw showing the Cadenza Duo Crane guzheng showing the back board, Carol. On the Cadenza site, this model is described as having a one-piece base board. I can't find any photos of anything other than the top side. I am just curious. A friend of mine has this design, but I am not sure of the specific back board type.

Thanks.

Best wishes,

David

[carol]

Oh, I was talking about the back board picture showing on the top side. For some reason, I keep associating that picture with their Duo Crane. Now, I reallize that it doesn't say its Duo Crane. All the other pictures from the site is straight from Dunhuang catalogue. Any way, that picture is funny. Even though it says "One-Piece Base Board", it's an obvious combination of two pieces.

[davidmdahl]

I took a look in my Dunhuang catalog for a better look at the guzheng pictures, but the back board photo on the Cadenza site is not there. Interesting. I wonder where it comes from.

Some of the photos in the Dunhuang catalog show the sound boards to be pretty dark. Does that necessarily indicate that the wood was dried by heating?

My friend has a Duo Crane guzheng, as I have already written, but it sounds pretty good to me. I can only imagine what a higher-end model would sound like. I hope to get a listen to a Scarlet Bird someday. It is interesting how much lighter the Scarlet Bird sound board are in the photos.

Best wishes,

David

[Vi An]

There is no comparison of sound quality when it comes to Scarlet Bird. My 26 stringed Scarlet Bird set a new standard for guzheng toneality and craftsmanship quality when it comes to guzhengs for me. Superior sound of course is due to the over all constuction of an instrument with all the best combinations of craftsmanship techniques and best wood choices and combinations. The Scarlet Bird has a secret ingredient I have yet to discover with all of my luthier and violin maker friends!!

If good quality woods are not used it will be extremely difficult to have a good sounding instrument. Less is more! Over use of wood and excess weight deadens a lot of sound transfer. I can feel this with my Scarlet Bird, it weighs a few pounds lighter than my Jinyun. You wont know the quality of sound on any instrument unless you had a few others of higher grades in front of you to compare.

A high quality recording and a controlled setting for recording different grades/brands of guzhengs will also do the trick. This requires a very good ear, superb head phones and a superior sound system so that you can feel as if the instruments are right in front of you. A superior sounding instrument will show even tones through out its entire range from highs to lows and will come across on the phones to be extremely stereoscopic. You will feel surrounded by its vibration. A lesser quality instrument's lower ranges will sound narrow, flat, buzzy (as if strings trying hard to resonate off of dense boards) and ringy (like small bells) on its mid to higher ranges. In person a good instrument to master grade instrument, when played should vibrate through your entire body from toes to the ends of your hairs on your head! Your whole body should feel it reverberate. Where as a lesser quality instrument if you listen and observe closely, only the strings vibrate the hardest, the rest of the instrument isn't vibrating as much. So the string is doing all the sound production the wood isn't! A good test to see if your instrument is vibrating with the string or more than the string, simply place your open palm of your left hand on different parts of the instrument's body and pluck a single note (from each octave) using your pinky (fleshy part) and see where the vibration is most concentrated. If the vibrations are very even and are strong though out -- you have an instrument where the wood is really working hard to produce sound!

These are my own obersvations ofcourse over a course of 10 years of really getting to listen carefully to all of my instruments and others as well as having the opportunity to play many different makes. My conclusion for now is that Scarlet Bird 10 and Scarlet Bird's 26 stringed instruments far surpass all that I have played and heard. Plus its appearence is so classy, sophisticated and at the same time modern. It stands out in many ways.

As for darkened sound boards I know that the Japanese kotos darken their sound boards as a way to bring up the beautiful grains and illuminate the woods texture and creates contrast as it burns away the softest wood to reveal the dense wood grains (swirls). This process also protects the wood. With kotos the paulownia has had plenty and enough time to naturally dry, age and crack before it is used for instrument making.

I am still unsure what the Chinese approach to burning the top board is? I have read mixed things about this. Sometimes a piece of wood is colored or "darkened" because they are inferior pieces (based on their factory standards). Individuals like me, may enjoy seeing knots here and there or swirls that appear in odd spots, etc. This darkening of woods is a process of making the wood look older than it is. For the most part it is only to conseal blemishes.

Joyous pluckings always,

Vi An

[Vi An]

Price does not always reflect the quality of an instrument. Age and amount of playing your instrument determines its true qulaity. Some people luck out and purchase a "cheap" instrument which ends up sounding pretty darn quality! You need to be there to pick out the instrument which suits you the best! Don't take peoples words for it. Don't be suckered into being over charged. There is no universal regulation on quality control when it comes to guzheng purchacing so really do your research, ask all the questions, expect all the answers and take a risk!

[carol]

Hi David:

All Dunhuang's guzhengs are dried heated. There is no exception. (Well, I take this back. I only see two custom made Dunhuangs with really white face. One is owned by Wang Zhongshan and the other one is owned by Yuan Sha.)

And their higher models have lighter color than the lower models. Actually, Dunhuang has the best heating technology in guzheng industry. They put the sound boards into an oven and dried them up. I called it the "oven method." All the others use fire gun directly apply to the boards. The "flame method."

For the Dunhuangs, you can still hear the wood tone after a certain period; but for others using the "flame method", no wood tone will ever appear.

Actually, SB oven dries a little bid to get rid of the excess water after air-dried for one year. Since they use a whole piece paulownia body, and it probabaly takes more than 3 years to dry it up. You can compare the color of the SB to my new custom made 100% air dried Tianyi, where tianyi's are even lighter.

[carol]

I do think grains are really important for the sound boards. Since sound trasmits alone the grains, not across the grains, it is very important to have straight grains. Otherewise, the guzheng will not sound clear. Grains have wider space will sound deeper and with tighter space will sound brighter.

Knots stock the sound trasmission. Swirls on guzheng is a "no". I don't want the sound of my guzheng to blur together and can't hear anything except loudness. A little parabola shaped grain right in the center of the board is ok, but I have never seen any guzheng that has the parabola shaped grains off center and also sound clear. It's agains the logic of sound transmission.

Actually, the best Japanese koto sound board has even swirls(parabola shape) radius out from the center of the sound board. I think that makes the sound really focused. The lower priced ones have uneven grains. Wish I can find a piece of board big enough for the guzheng that has the even swirls radius out from the center.

Well, look for grains. That's the most important thing. It might not do anything to the volume, but it guarantee the clearness. Then you can develop your own voice on the guzheng.

[Charlie Huang]

For guqin method of preparing wood, you have to immerse the plank into a pit in the ground filled with water for a year (to remove the sap), and air dry for at least 5 years (to remove water content). Only then can you use it for making qin. I guess for zhengs, they don't have the time to dilly-dally with preparing materials. I would assume the best wood for zhengs would be naturally dried rather than artificially dried.

[carol]

I really admire many guqin players have extensive knowledge in the instrument making. Most guzheng players don't. Maybe I should ask more questions from you guqin players to have better knowledge.

My spruce (Shanmu) guzheng is kind of like what you said. And I belive its taken from furnitures over 100 years. Is that the same as the shanmu used in guqin? What's the sound difference between a wutong guqin and a shanmu guqin?

[Vi An]

There is just so little information out there about guzheng making and what is all involved in crafting such an instrument. Its such a secretive thing it seems. A lot of what information is out there for the public is filtered down. There are no real evidences and nothing truly tangible that connects what is written to what is. Facts, charts, diagrams and such are hardly available. A lot of guzheng makers still are not up to date with the times and non of them speak a word of english.

We're in an age where information is desired and the more informed we are the better choices we will make, and the more we will buy!!

Keep well everyone,

Vi An

[YouLanFengChune]

Byan.

If I am not wrong, your Guzheng should have a painted. I "graduated" from Shangyin years ago....

I just set up a music school in Singapore, and along with it, a department which does some reaearch on instruments. Its fun! My first projects are pipa's inner carvings, the degrees of carving and its tone. The dizis are being updated, and for FUN, erhu's being skined, tested, reskinned!!

Its fun. Maybe Bryan can come and visit soon, after your exams....

[YouLanFengChune]

Business-wise, it not possible for us to totally disclose our facts and figures, but we can have more participants in making instruments. I hav friends who come here to try their hand at skinning their on erhu. Or make a dizi yourself.

[Bryan]

Haha thank you, finals last for 3 weeks, will visit =D Argh, ii can't believe my finals are actually comin!!!! Btw, have eu heard from Miss Cui?

[Charlie Huang]

carol said:

I really admire many guqin players have extensive knowledge in the instrument making. Most guzheng players don't. Maybe I should ask more questions from you guqin players to have better knowledge.

My spruce (Shanmu) guzheng is kind of like what you said. And I belive its taken from furnitures over 100 years. Is that the same as the shanmu used in guqin? What's the sound difference between a wutong guqin and a shanmu guqin?

It should be from a similar source. I have to say that tong is the best wood for making qins, followed by shan (as long as it's old enough). New tong wood can sound even better than ancient varieties of other wood (provided that the maker knows what he's doing or a master maker like Zeng Chengwei). Old doesn't necessarily mean good as sometimes people use wood unsuitable for making instruments. Old is OK since most of the water content has naturally evaporated, but is second to old tong wood (which is like a treasure coz old tong is very rare, antique qins are made of tong so they tend to be very good).

[carol]

I see. I think old tong will also be the best for guzheng. Old Shanmu guzheng sounds too loud and cold too me.

The only qin I have is made by Zeng Chengwei. Do you know what kind of wood he uses?
It looks and sounds just like a typical Zeng Chengwei's, but when I compare mine to Master Li Xiangting's, his is louder and richer and more clearer. I was too naive that I didn't know he made different grades of instruments.

[YouLanFengChune]

....
Brings me to a question abt Han Dynasty wood.

Its important to note that other than water, oxidiation ofcompounds such as silicon, mgnesium and phosphor as well as its carbon content affects a lot of things. From Han dynasty 1900++ years, its qality, though old, is usually quite .... bad...

just to note!

[Charlie Huang]

Zeng Chengwei's qins range from good to very good. His qins are very easy to play, thought some find his qins too loud. His qins are generally good because he is a master player himself (not a lot of qin makers are regular players, so they won't know a good sound). He uses new tong wood (you can tell by the colour).
LXT qin? I suppose you mean selected by LXT (he doesn't make qins), which you'll have to find out the actual maker.

Han dynasty wood is 'liberated' from ancient Chinese tombs. They are the structural wood of the tomb (the wood that are used as supports and are layered around the burial chamber). These wood are not protected by the cultural artifact agency or whatever so they are generally used for instrument making. Only problem is that they are seldom the right kind of wood suitable for instrument making, and secondly they could be contaminated by natural chemicals in the earth, or have woodworm, etc. The best wood are the ones that are aged naturally in a 'sterile' environment.

For ancient wood, it really is hit-and-miss.

[carol]

Thanks Charlie.

I see. It's hard for me to tell what kind of wood they use on guqin, since it's lacquered. Now I know my qin is new tong. Actually, it sounds louder with wood feeling than most of the qins I've seen.

I meant it just doesn't go near Li Xiang Ting's Zen Chengwei qin. When I was in Taiwan, I took lessons from Master Li the time he came to Taiwan for concert. I brought my qin to the lesson, and he used his Zeng Chengwei qin, which sounds louder and ancient than mine.
Maybe if I play my qin more, it'll sound better. I should be really satisfied any way, the qin is far above my level of skills.

[Charlie Huang]

Oh. Yes, his qins have a range depending on what price you put on it. He makes his qins quite differently from a prescribed method of the Yuguzhai. Sound box is more smaller, thus the qin is more flatter. And his qins prove that using new tong wood is more better than old eqivalents. You normally know what wood it is by looking in the sound holes. Look for colour, smell, grain pattern, etc. Old wood tends to be darker with the smell of a cellar while new wood, the grain is not that visible, colour is often light and the smell is minuet or has a hint of pungency.

His qins cost from $500 to $10,000 USD.