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Post by Vi An on Dec 23, 2004 6:44:23 GMT
Should one expect the value of your guzheng to go up over time and use?? Considering that the more the wood ages with no signs of cracks or major damages, and the instrument is performed on for years by working musicians should I expect to get back double what I paid???
On ebay a lot of people are offering newly brought instruments at pretty good asking prices and currently there is one in particular "a sandalwood" 21 stringed zheng of Dunhuang's. Its claimed to be a "collector's piece"..
Should one be sucked into this kind of advertisement and is it too good to be true?
Unlike a car or a computer, I guess the resale value of a well seasoned guzheng is priceless???
What do you think and what would you like to add?
Regards,
Vi An.
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 23, 2004 9:07:51 GMT
Should one expect the value of your guzheng to go up over time and use?? Considering that the more the wood ages with no signs of cracks or major damages, and the instrument is performed on for years by working musicians should I expect to get back double what I paid??? In general with musical instruments, the key to the value of an instrument over time is the sound. Certainly the attractiveness and physical integrity of the instrument is important also. A mediocre or ordinary instrument is not likely to get much better or more valuable, and in fact may decrease in value. A high quality instrument is obviously more desireable, and if the sound is indeed better may demand a premium. How much that premium is likely to be is difficult to say. An instrument from a well-known and respected maker may be more valuable than maker with less repute or more variable quality. In any case, I don't think that you can count on any rule of thumb when it applies to the value of old guzhengs. We may in fact be moving into a "golden-age" of guzhengs, where the instruments are made better than in the past. On ebay a lot of people are offering newly brought instruments at pretty good asking prices and currently there is one in particular "a sandalwood" 21 stringed zheng of Dunhuang's. Its claimed to be a "collector's piece".. I know nothing about the Dunhuang guzheng on Ebay, but it is safest to take most of the claims on Ebay items with a grain of salt. I have seen some pretty outrageous claims by people who only wish to sell their stuff. I would only buy something as a collector's item if I knew it to be true. Often times the pictures and descriptions are too vague to really know for sure. When it comes to musical instruments, a very pretty box can be a dud as an instrument. When I read that an instrument is a collector's item, I wonder if its value as an ornament is greater than its value as an instrument. Best wishes, David Dahl Portland, Oregon |
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Post by Vi An on Dec 23, 2004 15:49:58 GMT
Thanks David, As always you offer such great responses! Yes I absolutely agree that it is the quality over time of the guzheng's improved sound and over all high quality of construction that will bring its value up. The industry now a days is reaching the "golden age" because they are in fact making more quality for your bucks! The bar of standards are raised. Quality control and universal standards could also be alittle better in China, if they are to distribute to Western nations they should have qualified English speaking representatives, like a support team etc. Value also depends on demand and taste when it comes to resale. Some people prefer a quailty instrument with little to no bells and whistles (ornate addorments etc) or just a plain looking instrument with superb sound -- to these people it would be ideal and a treasure! Others value the shiny and more ornate pieces and consider that more valuable but there is no consideration for sound; maybe for just a handful of people in this catagory -- it would be a pleasant surprise if good sound came with the great look as part of the "whole package!" -------------- In my position I collect custom pieces of highest quailty instruments with all these major fators accounted for: material, craftsmanship, reput maker and most of all biggest - richest sound possible. They become a sort of investment piece for me as well as performance/recording instruments. These instruments are made to my specifications and I allow no room for errors or its shipping back. If they do not agree to my way of doing good business then they have lost my business. I am extremely serious about my music life so my instruments have to meet my expectations. I perform regularily with all of the instruments I purchace as they each serve a very unique purpose in my music career. These instruments continue to earn me a good return and comfortable living -- so they are a good investment. I am also the sort of musician who always replenishes my supply and so I hope to have a good return on the resale value over time when I do sell off the instruments. My best, Vi An. www.geocities.com/just_vi_an |
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Post by blueharp on Dec 23, 2004 19:44:49 GMT
A mediocre or ordinary instrument is not likely to get much better or more valuable, and in fact may decrease in value. In most cases that is true however in the world of the harp (my background) it isn't. Value is primarily determined by cosmetic appearance, then by maker. A crappy harp that is really pretty will sell for a huge amount of money (up to $40,000 USD) whereas a good sounding instrument that is plain or made by a different maker will not fetch as high a price. Sad but true. The re-sale value of anything is based on what people will pay for it. Things like maker, model, materials, age, rarity as well as perceived value all play into it. For example, the most famous Tang dynasty guqin was sold recently at auction over the summer by the Palace Museum in Beijing. It sold for a record 3,465,000,000 Yuan (~$418,000USD). Would it have sold for as much if it were obscure? In the case of the eBay Dunhuang, I understand that this is one of their "super premium", top of the line instruments. Apparently it is the same level as the one used in the past by Wang Zhongshan. In addition it is made by Master Xu himself. How it sounds is impossible to say without actually playing it. After doing some research, it turns out that the price is quite fair. If I had the money I would buy it in an instant! Steve |
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 23, 2004 22:05:02 GMT
Good points, Steve. There is a lot of speculation going on in musical instruments that has less to do with musical factors than anything else. Mandolins made by certain makers in the early 1900's have taken on a legendary status, and sell for amazing amounts of money. The prices for historical violins are even more wacko. The price of a professional violin bow is more than the prices of any of the high end Chinese instruments that we are discussing.
I feel a little sheepish in answering Vi An's post without checking on Ebay for the Dunhuang guzheng. It does indeed look promising and not a bad price. The question remains though, when is something like this a good financial investment rather than a musical one. Not everyone is looking for a guzheng, so it can be a challenge to find that special someone who will meet your price and double your money.
I have been pretty happy when I have been able to get my money back out of an instrument. Often times when I add my enjoyment into the balance, I came out ahead.
I remain sceptical about instruments on Ebay, or at least careful. Looks and pedigree are not everything. Of course, good feedback over a period of time is a good sign, and if the description covers the bases without being too evasive or "salesy", I am more comfortable bidding. A return option if the instrument does not satisfy can be a deal clincher.
I have been window shopping on guzhengs for several years. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, I don't have room in my house or in my practice schedule. I have a condition called MIAS (Musical Instrument Acquisition Syndrom), leading to depleted savings, a cluttered music room, and somewhat annoyed wife. I think I will try to find an erhu teacher in January, and practice the instruments I already have. I will be content to enjoy the music and stories from my friends who play the guzheng.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by Vi An on Dec 23, 2004 22:18:56 GMT
Thank you Steve and thank you David,
What would poor lil'ol me do without you guys!!??!
This is a really great discussion and is very enjoyable for me to throw out my naive questions and all -- and then to recieve very insightful responses I'm very "gratefulgrapefruit" (as the singer/musician Bjork would say)!
I, like David, also have MIAS! <g> I'm fortunate that there are no other guzheng/dan tranh/koto improvisors in Calgary, Alberta -- Canada to compete with so my instruments are always earning me money back!
That is a good new years resolution you have David with finding an er'hu teacher!
My best!
Vi An.
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Post by Vi An on Dec 23, 2004 22:30:35 GMT
YES! Everyone has had one bad experience with Ebay and that is enough to be more careful for good on there. There are so many sellers of Asian goods who (in my opinion) are try-hards to sound like an Asian merchantile! They go out of their way to type like how they "think" Asian people sound like trying to sell you something for example:
"This item bring for you great joy, prosparity like feng-shui!" Etc etc... I don't know any asian people who speak like that and if they do -- they have no clue what "internet" is or atleast how to build your own virtual "shop"! *Laughs* Some poeple are so sneaky!
Some times it is so obvious, an Asian person on line does not type like how they talk, and besides its never that cliche!
On the "historic violins" topic brought up by David in his last response. I hear you! My friend Karen Sim who is a fun-loving and most talented violinist has a German violin from the 18th century with a price tag of $20,000 USD not including the $15,000 bow! I fainted when she told me over the phone that this was a gift from her dear mother when they were just out window shopping for a violin for mum to start learning! It is so true about "what people are willing to pay" as Steve noted! I only payed $2800 for my custom Jin Yun and I'm gaurding it with my LIFE! One little nick or bump potential and I'm freaking out!!! *Blush*
I can't live without my instruments! I love guzhengs!
Must have more, more -- MORE!
Vi An.
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Post by blueharp on Dec 23, 2004 23:23:27 GMT
I too suffer from MAIS. ;D What makes it worse is that I like the expensive stuff! I agree with being cautious about buying instruments on ebay. I bought a vintage gold pedal harp and paid $14,000 for it sight unseen. The maker was known, the model desirable, the vintage highly desirable, the pictures great. When it arrived it was a different story. I opened the shipping trunk, looked inside and was immediately on the phone to the seller. It reeked of cat piss, the gold leafing was coming off due to cat urine soaking the ground, the instrument looked like it had been a scratching post for decades. Worst of all the mechanism, the most difficult and expensive part to repair, had been cracked and needed to be re-forged. It needed another $15,000 just to make it playable! I did eventually get my money back less shipping, as the seller was quite honest and honorable. I have also bought treasures on eBay. One instrument was made by a German maker that died in his late 90's over 25 years ago. He began making instruments in the 19th century! His instruments are superb, and quite rare. On the flip side I have also sold some of my acquisitions on eBay. Believe me they are good, otherwise I wouldn't have bought them in the first place! As to the question of a guzheng being a good investment, that is difficult to say. The demand for guzheng is fairly new in the west. I don't think that the market is knowledgable about what a fine guzheng is - yet. In a case like this the investment can be seen as mostly musical with a potential to at least recover the initial financial investment. David has hit it right on. If I can sell an instrument for what I have paid for it then it, then it is a good deal. If I lose money - well I think of the period of time it was in my care as "rental". In other words I was able to enjoy it for $X per month. Oh, I think "collectable" is a misnomer in this case. I don't think it translates the concept too well from the Chinese. "Super Premium" or some such is better IMHO as it denotes something made only from the best materials and by the best craftsman (Master Xu). I would still buy it in a heartbeat!  ;D Steve |
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Post by Charlie Huang on Dec 25, 2004 12:23:00 GMT
The re-sale value of anything is based on what people will pay for it. Things like maker, model, materials, age, rarity as well as perceived value all play into it. For example, the most famous Tang dynasty guqin was sold recently at auction over the summer by the Palace Museum in Beijing. It sold for a record 3,465,000,000 Yuan (~$418,000USD). Would it have sold for as much if it were obscure? Steve The Tang Dynasty qin, I heard, was worth its money. When it was first played, it didn't sound that good, but after LXT played it for five hours flat, the instrument opened up and the sound was heavenly and unbeatable! I also heard that some years ago, some people paid quite a lot of money for qins made by a Ming prince, even though qin scholars and experts kwen that it doesn't sound that good and particularly well made. That's the risk we take in buying antique instruments. Some may sound very good, but others may sound totally crap. The cost would reflect how much people are willing to pay it, rather than its true nature of its use. Because the people who are likely to buy them is collectors rather than musicians. It's a shame that because of this, we might be paying more for an instrument than its really worth. And yes, I think I'm beginning to get MIAS! LOL! But at least I buy them and learn to play them. I have three, a qin, a xiao and a pipa; and I don't think I'll be getting anymore until I get a great deal of money in the future. |
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Post by Vi An on Dec 26, 2004 4:48:02 GMT
Reading and re-reading the ebay ad for the DUNHUANG guzheng by Master Xu I'm desperate to ask why sell the darn thing then? *Laughs*. If it is becoming "so rare" and "hardly any makers use zitan" anymore brings the value up over time based on demand then why sell it? Why not keep it in a safe place for yourself as an investment or show piece? I am also tempted to ask, what the heck is wrong with it -- how much did this salesperson actually pay for it orginally?? Or better yet why did they purchace it in the first place? Chinese culture net always has zitan zhengs for sale at wholesale 60% discounts, so what makes this particular one "super premium"? Besides the obvious that its "said" to be by Master Xu? How could it be proven that the Master himself sweat over this particular one? How many of the same ones has he made and is in the entire world at the moment?? I feel the rarity of a piece also contributes to the value over time... Anyone can relicate insignias, brand stamps and the sorts these days so I question it always. If he has documentation and proper evidence to prove his very flowery claims then I will for sure pick that instrument up before a heartbeat even!! I will personally fly down there to pick it up! *Laughs*.
Hmmm, maybe I should have Master Xu himself construct my custom 31-stringed zheng!
The Jinyun is satisfying me exponentially, I have heard and seen many guzhengs so far (on CD and in person) and before my Jinyun finally arrived I didn't know what to expect! After just assembling the bridges and glissed up and down the scale it was like being beside a musical brook! It really stood up to its name. Its an increadible piece of engineering too, the craftsmanship is pristine, every line and curve just right. Here I go again! *Stops self*
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Also: What about guzhengs with an ebony frame? Would it be considered as valuable a material than zitan because its just as rare if not even more rare now-a-days (in larger forms)?? So zitan is purple sandalwood yes? Is that more rare than say red-sandalwood?
My best regards,
Vi An
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 26, 2004 5:36:22 GMT
Reading and re-reading the ebay ad for the DUNHUANG guzheng by Master Xu I'm desperate to ask why sell the darn thing then? People sell all sorts of wonderful things on Ebay and elsewhere for lots of reasons. We don't need to assume the worst every time, but it is a good idea to be sceptical. It is easiest to sell the creme de la creme of something in person, when the charms are plain to see. It is more difficult to get top dollar when the buyer is going on faith. That is the biggest reason for my scepticism. Why sell such a potentially wonderful instrument where its glory cannot be demonstrated. That said, this might be a wonderful instrument, and the seller needs the money now. That is not so unlikely a possibility in this economy. Also: What about guzhengs with an ebony frame? Would it be considered as valuable a material than zitan because its just as rare if not even more rare now-a-days (in larger forms)?? An ebony frame guzheng might be valuable, but the accessory would be cost-prohibitive. This accessory would of course be the brute you would need to hire to carry your instrument around. <g> So, who is going to buy the guzheng and satisfy our curiousity? Best wishes, David |
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Post by Vi An on Dec 26, 2004 6:27:07 GMT
*Laughs out loud* I think Steve would, he says he'll buy it in a heartbeat if his pocket book allowed right now! --------------- Well the seller on Ebay has written that they'd provide an mp3 of the instrument to get an idea of how it sounds. Maybe those of us who have an ebay account should contact the seller? I don't have highspeed connection to the web so I fear the mp3 could slow me down too much and I can't hop on to here as quickly as I'd like. *Sigh* Yes the accessibility and transportibility issue is always high on my priority when it comes to instrument material choice! However I have that solved for the most part -- being a musician who also is a busker (public performer who accepts donations in her instrument case), I have learned to be extremely practical! I have also developed a lot of needed muscles over time *hear me roar*! When I got my first DUNHUANG 21 stringed zheng I remember carrying it by my two arms walking and from house to bus stop (4-5 blocks) and getting off and on busses (usually holding open the back exsit doors myself). Then I got a travel caddy and some bungy cords (with hooks on the ends), tied the guzheng case down and attached a good steel handle to the top end of the case and dragged it everywhere on wheels! Now I'm going to attempt at attaching air filled rubber wheels found in boating shops where these strap on tires are used for moving canoes and kayaks! I figure it would absorb much more shock! It is very good as a musician to not count on other's to carry your instruments. But I am always so thankful to those who have helped me with transport needs all these years, my career is made so much easier and stress free because of these wonderful people -- you all know who you are Thank you! They treat my instruments like objects of royalty or of such delicate treasures. I don't know how many times my instruments flipped over the wrong way down (because of high winds) and nearly onto rail tracks, and still manage to protect the instruments inside! Amazing! Regards, Vi An. |
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Post by Vi An on Dec 29, 2004 5:08:14 GMT
I hope all are well! Hellooooooooooooo!!  If this is truly a potential "investment" for profit and not so much for sound. I guess this is why 1- this person is selling it because it prolly has no sound quality to it and 2- because he aquired it thinking it would earn a good sum over time but market proved it wouldn't happen so this seller needs just to make back perhaps a little more than what he paid. I have many guitar luthier and violin luthier friends here and they are very good sources for really great information about wood types and all that jazz! Most of them are preventing me from picking up that zitan guzheng from ebay in a big way because: 1- zitan is only fashionable and they doubt it will have any tonal quality because of how immensily dense it is, because the guzheng's structure also contributes to overall resonance that in the end it is too dense a wood to produce the needed sounds. 2- it is only pretty and unless you can resell it specifically to the population who are collectors and would willingly pay thousands more for it just for decor, the more realistic musician buyers will stay clear away from it because they will know very well it will not sound. 3- most beautiful looking instruments on staged are highly amplified with the best mics because without the technology support it will not sound good. 4- I should continue to seek out innovators of guzheng engineering and makes like Jin Yun because it is true that students of great masters usually excell their teachers! 5- instruments which are french-polished / satin finished will retain more natural wood resonance than instruments coated with layer after layer of lacqur because that really deadens the sound 10 folds. Please, someone now.. My best, Vi An. ---------------- I love the guzheng! www.geocities.com/just_vi_an |
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Post by blueharp on Dec 29, 2004 9:52:43 GMT
Hi Vi An, There is also the possibility that the seller is a guzheng fanatic in search of the perfect instrument, and that this one is really good but lacking some quality that the seller is looking for. Or perhaps the seller got a newer guzheng that they like better. Sound familiar? I had a chance to play on a really good purple sandalwood guzheng a few years ago and it was magnificent - but waaaaay too much money for me. BTW- I have checked and the "Buy It Now" price is below what one would cost new (~$2100USD +shipping) so the seller is not looking to make a huge profit. Steve |
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Post by Vi An on Dec 29, 2004 16:46:14 GMT
Heya Steve, I got response back for some of my questions to the seller and it was very satisfactory. Yes the seller is selling this piece at a loss of the original price. Yes I totally relate to the above mentioned. Vi An |
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Dec 30, 2004 2:06:04 GMT
Hiya ALL If the Guzheng you are asking for is the Tian Zhen Yuan Yun (Sandalwood OR Aged Redwood) Guzheng from Dunhuang, Cadenza Creative sells it BRAND NEW for under $!600/= (shipping INCLUDED) may modify if you live OUTside USA It will come to us with chalk marks indicating the bridge positions, 1 set of tortoiseshell picks with1 set of tortiseshell picks! cadenzamusic.biz |
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Post by fraucremer on Jan 21, 2005 8:23:08 GMT
No, it's the model they describe on their website as "Premium Aged Redwood Guzheng with Bone Lining", the sell it for USD $1260.00 plus shipping. Link is here: cadenzamusic.biz/gz16.htm |
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Post by Vi An on Jan 21, 2005 16:30:52 GMT
That one on cadenza is very pretty also, love that redwood color, dark and intense.
The one that already sold on ebay was a "zitan (purple sandalwood) with interesting flushed bone inlay for the string holes. From my understanding, because bone is a natural material and much like wood, over time it will discolor and crack or even break away from the glue which held it. So is it a good idea to flush the bone like that for string holes, under all that weight of string tention?
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Jan 21, 2005 17:21:51 GMT
Yeah of course.
Dunhuang showed Me and my Cadenza friends a set of report about strengrth tests, and we have now opted to send back all our old Guzhengs.
New Dunhuang Guzheng comes with several patented designs, like the new sound post/block to make the basses sound deeper, flushed bone inlay, and Full solid back pieces, with ALL the grains visible.
Cadenza has spent a fortune, and the aim is to help our friends in the west, mainly USA and Europe to purchase better instruments. Support from anyone?
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Post by Vi An on Jan 22, 2005 2:21:31 GMT
Good info,
I will be helping out your friends at Cadenza soon enough if all works out with my custom order of my 31-stringed guzheng. We are working out the details right now, no go yet until I am completely satisfied with the level of attention and thorough communication with me at every stage. It is a big deal to custom order such a huge instrument and I want it to be done right *perfectly* the first time. Since Cadenza seems to have good contact with DUNHUANG and a good reputation to beable to offer instruments at such a great cost with such prized quality, then I am willing to give them a shot.
I am a musician who knows what she wants and I'm not affraid to spend a little extra for an instrument which is for my living, career in music sharing and creating. It needs to be a tool that I can become one with. That is why if this works out, my other instruments are going to need to be sold to serious musicians. I just need this one instrument.
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Post by twilight on Jan 23, 2005 5:42:56 GMT
I've recently ordered a guzheng from Cadenza, and the sound is really nice. The bonus here is that Cadenza's service is great. I got my guzheng really fast and any questions I have, Yinhao would gladly answer ;D
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Jan 23, 2005 8:38:51 GMT
Thanks. And She paid under $1570 for
1) Guzheng (yeah, the Tian Zhen Yuan Yun you were talking about)
2) 1 ornately carved stand thats collapsible and easily tucked away.
3) 3 sets of tortoseshell plectrums
4) 1 English Chinese Guzheng book
5) Roll of adhesive tape
6) 1 set of 2 Instructional VCD by Wang Zhong Shan (in chinese)
Actually She got her Guzheng in 3-4 weeks. Now we are able to reduce it to about 1 week as we have cleared the WTO hurdles (politics).
Great Value for money huh?
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;D
