The Best Guzhengs [PKA: Thank you Charlie]

[Vi An]

Glad to see this forum up. Hopes everyone from Chinese.net comes over too and re-contributes to the discussion of gu zhengs.

More later,

Vi An

[davidmdahl]

Well, I will jump in. I don't play the guzheng, but enjoy the music very much. A good friend who I play Vietnamese music with on occasion has been taking guzheng lessons for a few months, and found that his dan tranh experience really helped. At present I am enjoying the guzheng vicariously through him.

I am intrigued with the Asian zithers and the differences and similarities among them. One common thread if I am not mistaken is that the sound board is often of paulownia wood, while the frame can be rose wood, sandal wood, or others. I am curious if the sound is mostly dependent on the sound board and bridges, or if the frame has much of a contribution.

Best wishes,
David
Portland, Oregon

[Vi An]

Thanks for contributing first of all and good to have your input/questions...

The body of the gu zheng has little to nothing to do with the "resonance" of tone, it only adds to the appearence and appeal of the instrument. Durability is also determined by what hard woods or exotic hard woods are used for the body (frame).

The most important tone producing woods to be concerned with are the tops and bottoms of the zheng, it is important that both top and bottom are of one full piece of paulownia, and not just veneer sheets which are then laquered! Zheng bridges also may contribute to tonal distribution but if poor wood choices are made, bridges can degrade the tonal quality!

I have only had the luxury of working with zhengs of rosewood and I find it is perfect. Weight is important to me because I travel to perform A LOT and transportation time and efficiency means more money so I need the instruments to be reasonable in weight. Zi-tan woods and woods harder and more dense than rosewood I think should only be used for bridges, main and movable!

I still need to learn more about zhengs because I totally love these instruments, I go crazy for them and wish one day to be able to collect as many different varieties as I possibly can! So maybe I can become a spokesperson and endorser? When I become a more well known musician and better musician *blush*..

PS: What parts of the hardwood logs are cut to make an instrument also has an effect on tonal quality. Overall quality of any instrument isn't determined solely on appearence and price BUT by how it sounds to you..

Vi An

www.geocities.com/just_vi_an

[David Dahl]

Many of the rosewood objects I brought back from SE Asia have cracked or warped considerably. I have been concerned about that risk with regards to rosewood framed guzhengs. Is this mostly a risk with "green" wood that has not been properly aged or conditioned? Is zitan mu any less likely to crack? Is this even a concern with a properly made instrument?

I know what you mean about heavy woods. One of my favorite woods for flutes is African Blackwood or grenadilla. Even in the relatively small amount of material required, a grenadilla flute is relatively heavy. I can only imagine how heavy a guzheng would be of that wood.

Best wishes,

David

[Vi An]

Good questions!

Exotic hardwoods must be conditioned properly during and after production. It is not only the responsibility of the maker to ensure properlly aged woods and pre-treatments but you the consumer after purchasing it must take steps to preserve the condition of the woods.

1: Where you cut the log makes a big difference on prevention of cracking, if you choose a piece with straightest grains it is less likely to crack.

2: For "made to order/custom pieces" only, the maker should be very aware of their market and consumers, they must be very aware and up-to-date with information of your country/city/state's specific climate and altitude stats; so they can determine the best choices of wood types and treatments for your order. This will save them a lot of money in the long run and also save you a lot of hassles!

A good company does not want to see an instrument come back to them with an unsatisfactory mark on their name now would they?!

3: Use a small amount of lemon oil (NOT the PLEDGE brand) on a silk cloth, or lint free cloth and rub gently over the entire wood surface (avoiding the paulownia top!). This will provide the surfaces of the exotic hardwoods with plenty of moisture for life, if you keep this up once every two months. For the interior and paulownia wood's protection, it is a good idea to get a guitar humidifier tub which you can fit into the middle sound hole. I have made my own out of an empty film cannister, punch some good size holes around it and on the lid. Then I would wet cotton balls, drain them a bit and place them in loosely into the cannister and shut the lid. Then I place that into the sound hole with a string sticking out so that I can remove it from the inside easily...

ALWAYS store your instruments back into their cases when not in use -- the best place for your instrument is its own case!!! If you insist on displaying it avoid direct sunlight and heaters. Or small kittens (hahahaha). Keep it well covered over night with a shallow tub of warm water under the instrument.

I noticed sometimes if you don't do any of the above luck just has it that nothing will crack with no care what so ever! But it is good to be aware of the above notes to help you preserve and keep alive your best pieces so you will enjoy them for life!

Vi An.

[davidmdahl]

I know what you mean about keeping cats away. My cat finds the tassels on my dan tranh absolutely fascinating. Dogs are worse. Wood is just something to chew.

David

[Charlie Huang]

LOL.

On a past yaji, someone decided to bring a dog with them. It had a go at my tassels of my guqin...

[Vi An]

www.geocities.com/just_vi_an/concertupdates.html

Pics of my new zheng at my concert.

Enjoy.

[Charlie Huang]

Wow, Vi_an-san, you look great!

Had a look at your site and it was very interesting! I'm also interested in koto music as well.

[Blueharp]

I have had the chance to play on guzhengs by a few makers. The biggest difference between them seems to be the string to string spacing. My teacher prefers the Dunhuang instruments because the spacing is smaller and she has small hands. Playing Liu Shui is waaaay easier.

The height of the bridges is another variable. It doesn't affect tone so much as the "stiffness" of the string when executing An. Higher bridges seem to take more force so one must be very attentive to their position. Too far from the main bridge and the strings are really striif - too close and the bridges slip when the string is plucked.

Bridges can sometimes have burrs on them when new. I can't tell you how many strings 1 through 4 I have had to replace on new instruments before I figured that one out!

I did have a guzheng without sound posts and I thought it was OK until I tried one with them. A real improvement! All of the instruments I have seen that are recent have them.

I did try out a guzheng made from old zitan (not from CCN) and wasn't all that impressed. It6 was pretty but the sound was ordinary.

My current instrument is by Long Feng, and it is pretty good. No warpage, cracks or buzzes. The tone has developed nicely.

Glad this forum is here!

Steve

[Vi An]

Hello,

Glad to have you here too Steve! Thanks for the very good post! I'm curious about the comment about "sound post". How can I tell if my gu zheng has one? What do I need to look for? Do you have pictures of your zheng? Mine was custom made for me by a Taiwanese luthier and company called Jin Yun (Golden Tone). I'm extremely happy with it as it is a 26-stringed zheng of solid rosewood with no decorations just ALL BIG SOUND! The bridges are high and so very well made. I was fortunate to have it made with one solid piece of paulownia top and on solid piece for the bottom, what a difference!

I'm curious though about quality of paulownia tops, because they come in all colors it seems. I was hoping it was more of a golden brown finish but it turned out to be a mat brown. The design concept is in the "classic" style and is just gorgeous. I like the proportions too its a little longer and reaches 65in. The spacing between the main tail end bridge and the end of the instrument (facing the audience) is longer than the head end. Any ways..

You can see a few good shots of the instrument on my website:

www.geocities.com/just_vi_an/concertupdates.html

The more I look at the gu zheng the more I am fascinated by the construction! I am on a role to collecting more gu zhengs and upgrading all the time with more strings. I like to collect one's which its value goes up the more I play it and the older it gets. Its an investment.

I like how Jin Yun design for my main end bridge is a "C" curve than an "S". Its very dramatic and sharp. I also love the details put into the sides as well as the edges. The edges are raised with a slight angle, its very pretty.

I personally do like the slightly shorter bridges and the more square ones with the bone cap tops inlaid in instead of just the middle part inlay of bone. I seen this from a friend's very old gu zheng. The bridges for a C shape if you lay them on their sides. I wouldn't mind ordering a set like that. I really like my Dunhuang 21-stringed zheng with cranes, its very reliable and has deep bass tones. That instrument has taken many many years to finally reach perfect tone, over 10 years now. I played on it litterally night and day when I first got it.

The strings have more to do with how well the instrument sounds than anything. My Dunhuang's top paulownia was recently sanded down a tiny bit and cleaned up (getting rid of residue from light finish) and WHAT A DIFFERENCE in brightness of sound and clarity.

I like to lemon oil the sides of my instrument to clean and preserve the wood.

I always put my instrument back into its case after I'm done.

I'm going to start a new topic where everyone can post pictures of their gu zhengs and show it off. Because I really like to see as many different styles and designs as I can!!!

Keep well,
Vi An.

[blueharp]

Hi Vi An!

Jin Yun is a very good company! I haven't had a chance to play on their guzhengs yet, but they are really well regarded.

The soundposts can be seen by looking in the dragon pond or phoenix eye. There are usually braces that run the width of the instrument and the posts are right in the middle of the brace - a wooden dowel about 1 cm in diameter.

Strings are very important! I think they are the most difficult accessory to get. I use primarily Dunhuang brand strings because my teacher's studio imports them. In a pinch I have used the strings from www.clarionmusic.com and they are nice.

I agree that a solid pawlonia top and bottom board are very important. As to quality - I really haven't found any sources for how that is determined.

I looked at your website and the Jin Yun website - beautiful guzheng!

All the best,

Steve

[davidmdahl]

What is the URL for Jin Yun guzhengs?

Thanks.

David

[blueharp]

Hi David,

Sorry about that, should have included it.

www.jy-cn.cn

Steve

[Charlie Huang]

Wow, Vi_an-san! Your guzheng looks like a se!

Yes, you should create a thread for guzheng pics.

[Vi An]

Thank you so much Steve for the link wow! I would have never found that myself..

Thanks Charlie, what is a se? I will make a thread for member's gu zheng pics!

All the best,

Vi An.

[davidmdahl]

Regarding the original topic of this thread, I am wondering what is behind the question implied in the poll on how many strings a guzheng should have. I presume that traditional literature is playable on "standard" 21-string instruments, while new compositions are driving the addition of more strings. At what point does a guzheng become too heavy, big, or expensive? Does the sound in general over all registers keep improving as the guzheng becomes larger?

Maybe another way of asking the poll question, is "where is the sweet spot for number of strings?".

Best wishes,

David

[Vi An]

Heya David,

First of all -- WOW -- this thread is getting hot, I love it thank you everyone so much so far for contributing!

Thanks for that very good point David.

Originally I posted that poll to see what people prefered, thats all.

I'll explain alittle why I myself prefer 26+ strings, its the wide range I need because I like to tune it part pentatonic and part diatonic. I also need bass as well because a lot of my improvisations requires me to use my left hand a lot. In the end though it is only because I want larger and larger instruments with bigger and bigger sound!

The reality is that nothing can justify the addition of strings because this means more weight and size, which also means more trouble for travel!

The 21-stringed zhengs can't be beat for range and weight for the kind of instrument that it is.

I don't know when I'll stop wanting more strings and bigger sound. I don't think I can get everything just as I want. I'm sure someone may one day come up with the perfect innovation for a zheng with the most range and sound with ideal weight and size!

I'm pretty crazy about the gu zheng, I don't mind how big or expensive. As long as its the way I need it to sound. But I'll always hunt for the deals and right prices!

[davidmdahl]

Be careful what you ask for! The piano used to be a charming little keyboard that was easy to move around. Then people wanted more power and notes, and look what happened. <g>

A friend of mine who plays the dan tranh and guzheng is highly annoyed with you since you have a 26 string dan tranh. According to my friend, a dan tranh does not have that many strings. I think he is just jealous that your tranh has more strings than his. <g>

Best wishes,

David

[Vi An]

That is very funny! Yes I totally know what you mean with the grand piano. It needs litterally a crane to carry around!

For the comment about dan tranh, it really doesn't need to have more than 17 strings. It is ment to be a very delicate and celestial sounding instrument, small and quiet type. It is useless to have 26-strings really because it only gives me more range but not any more sound because of the way it is constructed the tuning pegs will not support very thick gauged strings needed for proper bass resonance!

It is a lovely instrument all the same still because it is larger and there is room for a lot more inlay work! I love wooden instruments. I wonder what the frame of my dan tranh is made of, is it king wood does anyone know the standards? My friend Dung hasn't gotten back to me -- he's a very busy man!

If your friend would like to buy my dan tranh just let me know <g>. I will use the money to get an even bigger, louder tranh!

Okay I'm just kidding now.

Best,

Vi An.

[Vi An]

I would like to obtain any other gu zheng makers with websites on line, so if anyone can help me and others out on this I would so appreciate that. Thanks! I can not read any of the characters on the Jin Yun site but I found my way to see all of their lines of gu zhengs. WOW!!! What a selection. Still nothing terribly exciting, but the best I have seen in a long time! I saw a few styles like mine -- very impressive craftsmanship, I love the pieces with which the wood has so much grain swirls!!! Gives such texture and such inspiring appearence! I'm still only interested in zheng bodies with no inlay, stones, bone, carvings or paintings on it.

Much warm regards,

Vi An.

[Charlie Huang]

Vi said:

Thank you so much Steve for the link wow! I would have never found that myself..

Thanks Charlie, what is a se? I will make a thread for member's gu zheng pics!

All the best,

Vi An.

The se is the ancestor of the guzheng. It is large and has 25 strings looking very much like a large guzheng but slightly longer, often used in accompaniment with the qin in ancient times. Unfortunately, the se has almost died out. Only one person I know of has played it and that was Wu Jinglue (a famous qin player) who is already deceased. I don't know anyone else who is living who plays it or if there are any efforts to preserve its existence.

[Vi An]

Oooooh how fascinating this is to me! I would love to keep it alive!! Give me one and I'll help to preserve its beauty... Longer instruments is good for me as you know. A lot more beautiful wood to admire!

:-D

Vi An.

I would like to see pictures of the "Se".

[asharpe]

Maybe Charlie can show the Chinese character for Se. If so, I'm sure we can use it to search in Google's image search function, or in Sogou's image search, to get a picture of a Se. I'd like to see one, too.

[asharpe]

I like a challenge. Is this the character: 瑟 ?
If so, then is it on this page: www.chime.com.cn/a-3.htm ? How about this one (It's very blurry, I'm afraid): www.zengdou.gov.cn/fengguang/bianzhong/se.htm ? Lastly, how about at the bottom of this page: big5.ccnt.com.cn/show/zhonghuayf/yiqumy/yiqu-4.htm ?

(just trying to help... I know nothing about Chinese stringed instruments, and not much more about the instruments that I try to play -- xiao, dizi, xun, hulusi).