xun fingering help

[asharpe]

Hi folks,

I have several xun, but they are all low quality and don't have tuned holes, except for one. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a fingering chart for it. I have tried to make a fingering chart with an electronic tuning meter and finger gymnastics, but for some reason, I can't get it right. It's quite frustrating. I've been to a large number of Chinese xun sites on the net, and found many fingerings, but none of the hole patterns seem to match mine. So, I've made a rudimentary drawing of my xun's holes, in the hope that someone will say, oh, yeah, I have a fingering chart for that! Sorry for the quality, an artist I am not. The numbers in the holes are to show the relative sizes of the holes.



Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Andrew

[YouLanFengChune]

Hi!

I asked both Zhang weiliang and lu fengshan b4 about this. The answer is UNIVERSaL:

ALL XUNs ARE DIFFERNT! There are no two exactly equal fingerings.

[asharpe]

Oh, my. Is this possible? What other instrument has this property? Even the ocarina (a descendant of the xun) has standardized hole sizes. How does anyone write a xun teaching method book, if all xun are different?

Well, thanks for the information, YouLanFengChune, I appreciate it, even though it wasn't what I wanted to hear. However, you say, "There are no two exactly equal fingerings". Are there fingerings close to what I have?

Not to belittle what YouLanFengChune states, but can someone else substantiate his claim?

Sigh.

Andrew

[asharpe]

This url seems to indicate that there is some sort of standard for hole size and finger position in order to get more notes out of the xun, but I cannot read Chinese well, and the translation engines make a horrible mess out of the page, so I really don't know if that is the gist of the page or not. What do you think? www.diyun.com/new/12x1.htm

[YouLanFengChune]

You can standardize hole size, and you can standarddize diameter, but what about material density? Different areas have different clay, differnt temperatiure klin. Whatabout interior diameter? what about deformities?

I played a few types of xun before, and came to a conclusion:

I'll use the xun, so long as its base note (when all holes are pressed) sound to be in pitch. After that, i'll work around the pitch. Perhaps i may file the whole size. Perhaps i'll work aroundthe fingering system. Sometimes, it takes days if not weeks to work on a piece.

Far as i am concerned, every xun is different.

[Dick]

Hey everybody. Been away from computers for a week or so, me. Just catching up around here.

One sees thousands of cheap, unplayable xuns for sale in the muslim quarter in Xian. That's where the instrument was uncovered (along with the terra cotta soldiers) after 2000 years of oblivion. But I brought home a really nicely made and well-tuned one that we found in the Xing Hai warehouse outside Beijing last March ('04). It's like the one you pictured, Andrew, with nine finger holes.

I have a Chinese instruction book for wind instruments that covers rudiments of dizi, xiao, suona, guan, sheng, and xun. Plus one or two others, maybe, it's a darn handy little reference. Anyhow, the first thing that got me about the fingering chart for xun was that fully the lowest fifth worth of scale tones are produced with one fingering, namely all holes covered. Listening to xun recordings, I realize it is true: you get a fifth or more modulation with just the lip, same as a soda pop bottle.

The second thing I found was that the fingering chart in my book worked only to a limited extent, requiring massive lip compensation for several pitches. In the end, I made my own chart ... starting the with fingerings in the book and altering the worst outliers by trial and error until I had a system I could use consistently. At this point, I have a moderate command of modal material across about an octave and a half. Practice, practice

On the technical side, the factors that dictate the pitch of a xun are the same as those for ocarina. Namely volume of the chamber, direction of windflow, and combined area of the exposed openings. Density of the clay would be a non-factor. Consistency of the surface or shape of the inner chamber contribute to tone quality, but not significantly to pitch.

My recommendation on finding the pitches of your xun is to first establish the whole range of its "fundamental." Then experiment with the combinations of opening one hole at a time, two at a time, and so on. Don't drop it! Pick fingerings that play well in tune, and that feel relatively natural as you ascend and descend the scale. Create a map you can use consistently and stick to it.

When time permits, maybe over the weekend, I will see if I can find a way to post the published chart and the personal one I use. If time really permits, maybe I'll post a short recording.

[asharpe]

Thanks Dick, this is very helpful.

Instead of using the electronic tuner, I tried simply using our piano, and using different fingerings to match pitches. I got farther, but then I realized that I couldn't get higher than about 6 notes on the xun I posted.Tuned or not, I just couldn't get it to work.

My daughter bought me a 8 hole xun in China that was glazed, and for some reason (perhaps the glaze) I can get a full chromatic octave + 1 on it! The only problem is that with all holes closed, I get a D, then the smallest hole opened is an F. I did discover, as you said, that changes in the head position (shakuhachi (or chi3ba1) calls it meri and keri) can certainly change a note +- half step, so, with the combination of that, and half-holing, I picked up the D# and E. But these notes are not easy to get to while playing.

It just seems strange to me, because fingering is something that you try to make instinctive, but with different xun, you have to learn over and over again. Perhaps if someone got good enough, and wanted another one, they'd just have one made with the same fingerings that they were used to. Humph.

[YouLanFengChune]

Thats the way it is. I think I sound very unscientific, but most Xun exist with maximum 1 1/2 Octaves. I have a model collection of Xun, and I'm still asking for methods.

I hope to be in Hong Kong in July, where there is a dizi festival. Choo Wen Chang and Zhang Weiliang hould be there, and I hope i can learn more about the Xun.

[Dick]

Okay, I dug out all my xun materials so I could post something a little more accurate and (hopefully) coherent. First off, there is no overblowing a xun. The only way you'll get more than about a ninth's worth of range on one is by lipping down the base tone. Contemporary professional xun players add a full octave (I kid you not!) below the base. That's a heck of a lot of meri.

Second, I compiled the best information I have to post a tutorial with a sound file and a single fingering chart at the same website as my other flute beginners' materials. See www.goamcan.com/lessons/Xun-01.html. The chart is partly derived from a textbook on Chinese wind instruments, adjusted to be a little more intuitive, and to suit my instrument better.

Last, I want to inject a personal note about consistent fingerings on multiple instruments. Believe me, Andrew, I feel your frustration on this point. However, there are many situations where you'll find variations on fingering patterns on what are nominally the "same" instruments. Modern woodwind manufacturers add keys or place keys differently as product discriminators. And I bet you had to adjust your thinking to move between a six-hole and an an eight-hole xiao, at least the first time. And how about moving from xiao to dizi and back?

I had this experience with a Turkish flute that a friend brought back for me from Istanbul last year. This ney in the key of "mansur" (G to you and me) is about 30 inches long with six finger holes on the front and a single thumb hole on the back. The vertical distance from the thumb hole to the first finger hole is almost 4 inches. That's a long reach, and on this particular flute the craftsman has accommodated the player by offsetting the thumb hole almost a quarter of the way around the tube. Thing is, the hole is offset to the right, not the left. Now I've played flutes for like 35 years, always with my left hand toward the top. The first time I handled this ney, it just repelled me. But the flute is 100 years old, clad at each of its eight joints and at both ends with ornately hammered silver rings. It is really a thing of beauty, so I decided it was worthwhile to give the instrument a chance. After two days and about an hour's worth of practice, it started to feel pretty natural. After six months, playing it in regular rotation among my other flutes, I'm entirely acclimated to it. I never grasp it the wrong way, or "forget" which fingers to move to get the scale. Ah, practice. That's what I'm gonna go do now...

[asharpe]

Wow. Excellent information, Dick. I appreciate it. I am flabbergasted (a scientific term that a xun player would be able to get another octave below the base note. But, I listened again more carefully to some xun recordings, and I did notice that there was a fair amount of elision and slurring that could only have come from head position (or perhaps careful finger sliding like on the hulusi -- but I've tried that on the xun, and it ain't easy!)

Andrew