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Post by Dick on Dec 21, 2004 0:16:09 GMT
It seems not very much in the way of specific help can be found on the web for people who want to learn to play Chinese flutes. This forum seems like a great start, though I haven't seen any tunes posted here (yet). I'm considering a project to format some practice pieces, exercises and other materials, along with transcriptions of recordings I am working on, maybe add some text explanations and make some mp3 recording examples, and make them available online. My biggest question right now is, how to make this work useful without creating an impossible task for me. Music transcription is quite labor intensive, but I'm ready for that aspect of it. What's the best way to post written music for xiao and dizi? I haven't yet tried, but I have an idea about how to construct simplistic jianpu renderings in html using <table>, etc. Anybody else tried this? This form would express only basic pitch and timing info, and in the end would likely be hard to read anyway. Personally, I have a lot more facility reading (and writing) western notation. I've been looking at a program called lilypond, which is supposed to produce a number of common print and display formats for music, including postscript, pdf, and png (image). Any opinions out there about what's the best to post? I prefer not to post multiple formats, if that can be avoided. My starting pages are found at www.goAmcan.com/imports/How-to-play-dizi.html and www.goAmcan.com/imports/How-to-play-xiao.html. I'm hoping to have quite a bit more material available by the end of the holiday break. Anyhow, check it out if you like. Comments, questions, suggestions, criticism, tips and just plain howdy's are always welcome. thanks! |
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Dec 22, 2004 1:40:34 GMT
I have it the opposite way, grew up learning dizi, it makes more sense to learn the Numerical system.
Chinese Music is very based on Fingering Systems.
It affects your playing styles, ornaments and even tone.
You can never play Journey to Guzu on any other fingering except Xiao Gong Diao etc
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Post by twilight on Dec 22, 2004 4:32:17 GMT
Dick,
Your instructions are very comprehensible, easy to understand. I kinda want to learn the flute myself after reading all these great posts ;D
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 22, 2004 6:21:55 GMT
I found the xiao fingering chart on the goamcan.com site useful, as I mentioned in my July 12 post.
Regarding notation of tunes, I think it best to stick with the jianpu numeric notation. I admit that I read western staff notation best, but the jianpu is not that hard to learn and, like a lot of things, gets easier with practice. Anyone serious about learning Chinese music will need to learn jianpu anyway.
The most useful way to learn the music and the notation, for me at least, is to have both the notation for a tune, and a recording. I do not know if html is up to the task. Maybe even a low resolution jpg would be good enough. We need someone to write something analogous to ABC notation for jianpu. (Google on ABC notation).
Best wishes,
David
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Post by Charlie Huang on Dec 22, 2004 13:22:06 GMT
I don't read Western staff notation, but I do sorta understand it. I mainly use it when I am stuck on a certain guqin notation, to see what note that yeilds, and then to dapu. But, I find jianpu easy to learn and understand, because it is basically a simplified version of staff notation.
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Post by paulv on Dec 22, 2004 14:41:59 GMT
Hello Everyone and Happy Holidays,
With regards to Dick's post on music notation software, Lilypond is an excellent program, but there are others out there which are easier to use and are shareware and/or open source and run on Windows/Unix/Linux.
I checked this issue out a while back when I was looking for some notation software that used the number notation as opposed to the staff notation -- I did not come up with anything useful.
Regards,
Paul Valente
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Post by Dick on Dec 22, 2004 16:19:57 GMT
Hello YouLanFengChune, Thanks for your suggestions. I appreciate that the number system makes more sense, if you know it and don't know how to read staff notation. You made some intriguing statements, however, that I need some help to understand: Chinese Music is very based on Fingering Systems. It affects your playing styles, ornaments and even tone. You can never play Journey to Guzu on any other fingering except Xiao Gong Diao etc Can you explain this more, please? In my studies and research, I have never seen a reference to Fingering Systems. Can you recommend a text (English or Chinese) that discusses the systems? Can you post the theme from Journey to Guzu so we can know what song you are talking about? What does "Xiao Gong Diao etc" mean? |
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Dec 22, 2004 16:32:47 GMT
Xiao Gong Diao is when you regard the lowest note as 5.
Lets use this notation Lowest = 5
commonly are Lowest = 5 or 2 or 1
more advanced pieces use 3 or 6
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Post by Dick on Dec 22, 2004 17:34:38 GMT
Oh, I get it now. Thank you for putting it in plain English for me. "Fingering Systems" correspond to transpositions, i.e., where the key of the song lays on the instrument. Saxophonists deal with this all the time. Jazz players don't feel they know a piece until they can play it in Lowest = (all 12 possibilities), also known as the 12 chromatic keys.
Obviously, an indication of fingering system or transposition can be provided whatever the choice of notation system. For example, traditional Turkish flute (ney) music addresses the same problem.
I found a copy of a tune Journey to Suzhou. Is it the same Trip to Guzu you mentioned? I will post the main theme, if that will help you to tell. Can you post (or point to) the Trip to Guzu theme on the web in jianpu?
thanks!
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Dec 23, 2004 1:44:46 GMT
Hmm... Hey Dick, I a dizi teacher and currently helps my friend with cadenzamusic.biz as well U? Please intro? Great to know you!! |
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Dec 23, 2004 2:01:41 GMT
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Post by Dick on Dec 23, 2004 23:12:19 GMT
Okay YouLanFengChune, or should I say Sensei. Thank you for posting the location of those scanned score pages. The scans highlight a couple of problems. First, the scan quality is poor. I can make out most of the composition, but many decorations, trills and other pieces of information are garbled and smudged. They are unreadable. Compare the Huain scanned image with my transcription of the first four bars of part II:  I put this together quickly with Lilypond. I converted the output to gif so it loads quickly and displays without pdf- or postscript-viewing software. It should look pretty good in your browser. In particular, you can tell what all the grace notes are. A second issue is the provenance of the material. Copyright laws prevent me from posting a scan of a text I did not create on the web, as if it were my own. The moderator of this forum asks us to conform to a rule with the same spirit. As I made clear at the top of this thread, I plan to post my own transcriptions. The discussion has unfortunately veered away from the original topic, namely online music resources to help beginners. Sensei, you referred to the piece Gu Su Xing as "highly emotional and technical" so I presume you agree with my assessment that it is not appropriate for a beginner. Tomorrow I will post my first three transcriptions on the web. I have created staff notation with Lilypond, similar to the example above, and each transcription will include an mp3 recording of the piece. I will announce the location of the lessons in a new thread, to avoid burying it at the bottom of this discussion. To all who expressed a preference for jianpu over staff notation -- sorry. I would post jianpu if there were a reasonable way to do it. YouLanFengChune's posting, and paulv's mention of his own researches in this area, convinced me it is not practical. thanks! |
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Dec 24, 2004 0:04:24 GMT
haiz... Don't call me Sensei
on staff notation, A is just A, GU Su Xing, it appears as 6, for HUan Le Ge, it appears as 5, for Mu Min Xin Ge (Herdsman's Song, it is a 1 (but in the same fingering system, it appears as 4, as it uses a dizi in E key).
Even worse, in certain pieces, A could be played using a very weird fingering, like b3.
Insistence on using staff notation will either result in people playing pieces without expressive use of ornaments, which is of paramount importance to Chinese pieces, due to either failure to expect certain unspoken and unwritten techniques : (Do you know that for Gu Su Xing and similar pieces, most of the 3 and 7 must Trill?), or playing with totally different/ wrong dizis. We have 4 major Bangdi, 3 major Qudi, 2 Xiaodi (picolo) and 2 bass dizis, all into the tow, and more are being added. Staff notation confuses beginners even more, for example, A on a C Qudi appears as 6, while on a D qudi appears as 5. It can appear as any note, totally different on every dizi.
Singapore Chinese Orchestra ( http://www.sco.com.sg) had met with a lot of difficulty which transiting from Jian Pu to Staff Notation. Resulting that it may face a comeback of Jian Pu.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Dec 25, 2004 12:36:26 GMT
OK, my attempt at simple jianpu typing on the net... 1=G 4/4 . 3. 5 6 5 6 1 | 6-5 - - - v | 5. 6 3 2 3 5 | 3-2 - - - v | EDIT: Drat! It wouldn't allow spaces over one!  *goes back to drawing board* |
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Dec 25, 2004 16:14:31 GMT
HAhaha..
I was fretting what tune should i use for my next cadenza sample recording.
That was Xiao Cheng Gu Shi (Story of a little City)
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Post by Dick on Dec 25, 2004 21:02:21 GMT
Good first try, Cardcaptor Charlie!! Thanks for joining in the spirit of this. I experimented a lot with html, trying to get the dot over the 1 (where it belongs in your sample) and so on. I tried table layouts and a bunch of other tricks. Music doesn't have to be very complicated before the difficulty of writing (and reading!) becomes too burdensome. How to deal with two dots? Dots below? Double lines? Dynamics? I have not figured out how to do it. Your example is very instructive. It's a simple song, appropriate for a beginner who can play reasonably in tune, sustain a breath for eight counts, and play the basic and upper octaves without straining. The piece doesn't need dynamic markings, perhaps. There are a few grace notes. It might be nice to mark the phrasing. We may want to specify using a Xiao pitched in G, and we must indicate the Fingering System, Lowest = 5 with a dot (all fingers down on the xiao plays low D). Here is my transcriptiont:  The input for this is not trivial. But it's a lot easier to manage than (for example) my xiao fingering charts (q.v., www.goAmcan.com/imports/How-to-play-xiao.html). I'll post the source if anyone's interested. I'm not saying it's pretty. But it has the advantages that (1) I can deal with it and (2) it produces complete, accurate, readable notation. If anyone can show a jianpu solution that meets those two criteria, I will thank them forever. Hey, any programmers out there? Lilypond is open source...it could be made to write jianpu, and problem solved in a very elegant way. My one source file could then produce BOTH staff and jianpu versions. How cool would that be? Meanwhile, the lack of a jianpu solution should not inhibit our helping people new to the xiao or dizi. Many have asked me where to find music to play on their flutes. For them, I have finally published my long-promised Xiao lessons for beginners. Check out the thread at starvoid.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=Wind&action=display&thread=1104007542 for the location. I suggest that discussion of technical issues about notation, etc, be continued in this thread. I invite experienced players to post music, studies, practice techniques, and other material of interest to beginners in the new thread. thanks! |
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Post by Dick on Dec 25, 2004 21:27:50 GMT
Anyone serious about learning Chinese music will need to learn jianpu anyway. Hello again! I have been giving your assertion a lot of thought, and respectfully I must disagree with it. I believe that someone serious could learn everything about Chinese music without reference to any notation, that is by listening. My belief is rooted in my most closely held feelings about music, and is supported by direct experience of professional and dedicated amateur musicians. There are several staff-notation editions of traditional Chinese music available. I have one in my study now (borrowed from Seattle Public Library) that presents 30 or 40 classics in both number style and staff notation. Technically, there is nothing that jianpu notation communicates that can't be communicated with equal fidelity using staff and text. It's not my intention to inflame a useless debate, but may I ask you to explain whether you really believe what you said about "serious" students, and if so, why? Are you referring merely to the condition that (as you may think) more printed Chinese music is available in jianpu? thanks! |
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 26, 2004 5:02:43 GMT
I believe that someone serious could learn everything about Chinese music without reference to any notation, that is by listening I am as well a great believer in the power of listening and learning by ear. Surely the notation is only a tool for learning and remembering the music. Someone truly determined could no doubt play well with either jianpu or Western notation. There are several staff-notation editions of traditional Chinese music available. I have one in my study now (borrowed from Seattle Public Library) that presents 30 or 40 classics in both number style and staff notation. Technically, there is nothing that jianpu notation communicates that can't be communicated with equal fidelity using staff and text. That's true that you can pretty much represent anything you want with Western notation, but communication is the key problem. For example, when someone raised on Western music reads staff notation, there is the tendancy to play as you would when reading Western music. This is not appropriate for playing Chinese music. Using the jianpu notation solves all the problems since all you have to learn is the appropriate techniques for playing the music as the notation indicates. There is less confusion for the Western musician since it is not necessary to rewire the thinking process while looking at the familiar notation while playing in unfamiliar ways. It's not my intention to inflame a useless debate, but may I ask you to explain whether you really believe what you said about "serious" students, and if so, why? Are you referring merely to the condition that (as you may think) more printed Chinese music is available in jianpu? Isn't it enough that there is a lot more Chinese music in jianpu? <g> A "serious" student is likely to seek out a teacher, who is most likely to teach from jianpu notation. It is the traditional way, and is so easy to learn. Why not learn to play from jianpu? Revisiting the aural method of learning, I have found it pretty challenging to find much of a repertoire for dizi or xiao available on CD. The recordings most easily found in the USA at least repeat many of the same tunes. A serious student will probably need to become resourceful enough to learn good tunes wherever they can be found, from teachers, performances, recordings, and notation of whatever sort is available. That opinion is my own, and is worth what you paid to read it. <g> Best wishes, David |
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 26, 2004 6:18:49 GMT
I don't know that it really helps the task of transmitting jianpu notation around, but I found a jianpu font for Windows that appears to work just fine for very simple tunes, but so far I am not sure how to do ornamentation with it. www.warriorbride.net/download/SimpMusic/Conceivably, the music could be written in the SimpMusic font, and then copied as a conventional font such as Times New Roman. Anyone having the above font could paste the tune into a word processing document and then change the font. Following is a sample: ew|11-2|etew3-|3tyeweq|2---| Best wishes, David Dahl Portland, Oregon |
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Post by Charlie Huang on Dec 26, 2004 13:29:59 GMT
Talking of notation, I've been thinking of a program that can write guqin notation. But since I have absolutely no idea about how to write computer programs et al, that would have to wait till a later date in my life...
Gong Yi has tried to 'modernise' guqin by using transcribing guqin notation into staff notation with various symbols to indicate string number and techniques, etc. But of course, his method isn't widely accepted because most qin players don't see the point and worth in it. Because guqin is based on fingering, techniques, etc, guqin notation is a much more easier way of conveying playing styles of a piece, and because it concerns itself with the music produced, rather than actual pitch. Of course, other instrument ideals might be different.
Yes, it's difficult to put dots above the 1 because the system doesn't allow spaces over one, so the dot doesn't move unless other symbols are inserted. I use the line above to insert dots et al. Also, double underline is a problem.
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 26, 2004 15:05:13 GMT
Talking of notation, I've been thinking of a program that can write guqin notation. But since I have absolutely no idea about how to write computer programs et al, that would have to wait till a later date in my life... Hey, Charlie. Check out the description for a system for koto: koto.sapp.org/kotospec/Best wishes, David |
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Post by Dick on Dec 26, 2004 21:40:45 GMT
Please permit me to offer my heartfelt thanks to Cardcaptor Charlie for maintaining this forum, and to all you articulate and passionate writers on Chinese music. I am learning a lot from this discussion. It puzzles me that there would be arguments "against" any type of notation. Wow. Maybe there is some underlying concept in play that I am not getting. The nub of it is hinted at by this: ... to play as you would when reading Western music ... is not appropriate for playing Chinese music. Using the jianpu notation solves all the problems ... I don't think the quote removes too much context, or alters the meaning. My apologies if the edit mangled the intent. I readily admit that I can be a bit slow  sometimes. I read that post over and over, and the ones in a similar vein by YouLanFengChune, trying to grasp the core idea, but I must confess I can't divine what is being referred to. Are there specific western techniques that are bad? Can you identify the problems jianpu solves? The one about rewiring my thinking doesn't correspond to anything in my musical experience so far. Personally, I read and interpret staff and jianpu about the same: Look at the page, finger the note indicated, blow for the written duration, do the next one. That's simplified, of course, but I think it gets the heart of the thing. thanks! |
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 27, 2004 7:01:43 GMT
It puzzles me that there would be arguments "against" any type of notation. Wow. Maybe there is some underlying concept in play that I am not getting. I have to admit that I don't quite understand Yinhao's explanations why only jianpu is suitable. I can't say that I am exactly against Western staff notation, but prefer to say that I prefer jianpu for Chinese music. I mentioned a couple of reasons which I thought would be plain, but maybe some explanation is reasonable for the one that was not so clear. For someone used to playing Western music from staff notation, it can be difficult to separate the Western styles from other music that has different traditions. An example of this is when classical musicians attempt to play Irish traditional music from staff notation. The results can be beautiful or ridiculous, but is seldom anything like the tradition. A musician experienced with Irish trad. music can take that same staff notation and by applying the appropriate unwritten style, make wonderful music within the tradition. The classical musician sees the same familiar staff notation and assumes all is needed is to play the notes as usual and everything will come out fine. Unfortunately, notation assumes that you already know something about the style and traditions of the music you are playing. Not everything necessary to making good music is written down. So, you see that one reason for preferring the jianpu is not really a slam against staff notation at all, it is just due to the stylistic baggage associated with it. Learning jianpu allows the new student to become familiar with the sounds and techniques appropriate for Chinese music via notation that fits the music. Probably for simple tunes, there is little or no difference between notations, but for more advanced tunes with a full assortment of ornamentation, the superiority of the jianpu is more obvious, to me at least. I just don't think that conventional staff notation handles Chinese ornamentation very well. One area that I think points out a problem with Western staff notation is modes or scales. Some of the modes used in Chinese music include notes that don't fit in the Western chromatic scale. It is not entirely clear to me how jianpu handles this, but "between" notes are certainly an issue with staff notation. I play Vietnamese music, and western staff notation is most commonly used for this. The traditional notation for VN music has all but died out. Personally I find the staff notation to be very confusing and misleading at times, particularly with respect to the modes and the "between" notes. I truly wish that there was a usable notation system like jianpu for VN music. Sure, the staff notation works, but it does not suit the music very well. As with Chinese music, there are ornaments that simply don't exist in Western music. It would be disappointing if Chinese traditional music was destined to be homogenized to the point where it lost its differences with Western music which were simply difficult to indicate with staff notation. Best wishes, David Dahl Portland, Oregon |
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Dec 27, 2004 13:38:21 GMT
Kudos to david again!
Perhaps, I betta rephrase.
Unlike instruments in bB or bE (Sax etc), our entire range of dizis read on Scores in C. (that means, when they read C, they play a sound C)
When the note written has to be played, for example an A on the score, it appears to the person playing a D-Qudi as 5 (Soh- You cover all the keys), but to a person using a G- Bangdi, it appears a 2 (Re- you cover 2 fingers on your left hand)
You have an entire range of dizis, orchestrally, we use common 12, and at least 2 types are used simoutaneously in an orchestra.
By using numerical notation and remembering fingering systems, a player could easily change from Key to key without hassle. If you use staff notation, you can infact confuse youself !
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Post by Charlie Huang on Dec 27, 2004 20:28:03 GMT
Thanks, David-san, for the link, but what I mean is a program that can create guqin notation (which is composed of bits of Chinese characters), etc.
From my guqin experience, where we memorise scores rather than 'reading whilst playing', I am uncomfortable with using western notation to learn qin scores. In Gong Yi's book, half of it is in his new guqin staff notation. The reason why I don't like using it to learn to play qin music is because it lacks a lot of info which would make learning a piece more time consuming and difficult. For a guqin, you can play the same note on the seven strings in so many different ways. I rather it told me which string and which position in the first place, instead of me going through it slowly, note by note, finding the correct position, etc. Then there is the fingering techniques which plays an important part in qin music, and there is a lack of that. Gong Yi uses his own invented notation above the staff notation as an aid to this, but it is also rather bothersome and inadequate for my needs. I find qin notation adequate enough to play a piece of music. For a qin player, our focus is on the instrument and the music, and not an 'outside entity'. A reason why some people want to use solely staff notation is because they see other musicians use it, and indeed they can play any tune under the sun, from pop to classical. Some qin players then get afraid that they might get laughed at because they don't know how to play anything else other than qin music, so they want to teach other qin players staff notation and the qin in terms of note positions. Though it is a useful skill to have, I think it is rather a skill that is of not much use, except for submiting to peer pressure of other musicians. I really dread to hear pop music on the qin (or any other classical instrument for that matter), as it would be definately out of place there. It is the nature of the qin that it retains a sense of elegance, and not fall into something which it is not meant to be. That would totally destroy its purpose and existence. Well, that's my views on guqin notation.
Now, for other Chinese instruments, where they are taught in terms of note and scales, staff notation does have a use, since it can be read quickly, and you only are required to play said note at said time. However, Chinese music is slightly different for Western music I find. Whereas Western music can be read and played by everyone who has learnt it (i.e. a pianoist and a violinist can more or less play from the same sheet of music) because there is less ornamentation required. In Chinese music, it is another matter, as there is lots of ornamentation to talk into account. If you saw my book of pipa scores, you'll be baffled, since there is so much symbols in it! And, it is these symbols that are important to pipa playing, since without them, the music would be ordinary. Like some of you said above, the music of the cultures around are different and they developed their own notation systems which suit the needs and requirements of said instrument, etc. Thus, these notation systems are the best in doing what they are suppose to do, i.e. enabling the musician to play the instrument/music with proficiency. Now that the world is open, there are so many notation systems out there to deal with. But when you learn an instrument, why mustn't you learn its notation as well? Surely, that should be priority. Because I want to learn guqin, I learnt its notation. I really didn't need to know any other notation because it isn't necessary. But when I wanted to learn the xiao, I must learn jianpu, since I need it to learn it. And, if I find myself wanting to learn piano, I would learn to read staff notation because not only is it a requirement, but it is also necessary to play the piano the best.
Oop, I hope that made sense. Me ranting... ;D
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sometimes. I read that post over and over, and the ones in a similar vein by YouLanFengChune, trying to grasp the core idea, but I must confess I can't divine what is being referred to. Are there specific western techniques that are bad? Can you identify the problems jianpu solves? The one about rewiring my thinking doesn't correspond to anything in my musical experience so far. Personally, I read and interpret staff and jianpu about the same: Look at the page, finger the note indicated, blow for the written duration, do the next one. That's simplified, of course, but I think it gets the heart of the thing.