Question about George Gao's QQQianjin

[annk]

I'm planning to start using George Gao's QQQianjin in a couple weeks, after I have my first real lesson (I want the teacher to see my erhu the way it is originally, before I start messing with this).

I've read through the instructions on how to install it, and it's pretty clear, but one thing I don't understand.

As a final step in the installation, it says to tune the upper thread qianjin at A-E (A below middle C). That must mean that the D string is tuned down to the A below middle C, and the A down to E, a fourth lower than usual, and one adjusts the movable head on the qianjin when one wants to play at the normal D-A pitch.

What confuses me about this, is that a D string is made to sound its best when tuned to a D, and an A string to an A. If the D and A are both tuned down a fourth, I'm wondering how this will affect the sound. Of course, when the movable head is set to D-A, I'm assuming the sound will be more or less as if the pegs had been tightened to D-A (since the head is in this case replacing, or at least augmenting, the tension established by the pegs).

On the demo Gao does online, it sounds pretty good. But I'd really appreciate it if anyone here who's tried this, can share his/her experiences.

Sorry if this is a bit confusing, I'm not sure how to explain it. I guess I'm mostly interested in any experiences others have had with this.

Thanks!

[song]

Well, its a bit complicated to explain but here's what i think:

- The sound produced brighter and louder if you tie the qianjin higher up the neck
- When the qianjin is tied higher, the strings are actually strung tighter to reach D A

So I suppose if the strings are strung tighter to reach D A the instrument will sound better.

Sorry what was your question again?

Thanks,
Sung Wah

[dsouthwood]

I'm puzzled, too. The pitch of a string is determined by its thickness (mass), its length, and its tension. I always thought strings were designed to give the best sound at a particular length and tension. Changing either of those would take you away from the ideal sound, I would think.

Granted, the qianjin is adjustable, and the placement directions that I've seen refer to the distance between your elbow and the knuckle on your hand rather than so many centimeters, but the string manufacturers might not be assuming that 6'2" westerners will be playing erhu much. I had my qianjin adjusted for my arm length, and at the first lesson my teacher put it back down where it belongs.

I think that the normal qianjin distance is what you want for the D-A tuning, and the qianjin is simply designed to slide easily to achieve other tunings. In other words, it's a capo for the erhu.

[sanmenxia]

The QQQianjin is similar to having two qianjin, the upper one made from the usual string and pulls the strings in towards the neck, and a movable lower one which is in effect a movable bridge as it is held down by the strings. The strings are still tuned to roughly the same tension as using a normal qianjin in standard D and A. The upper string qianjin by itself would give a lower pitch because of the longer vibrating string length.

Also you can’t have the qianjin to bridge distance too long because you will need to tighten the (standard) strings more to bring it up to D,A. so the strings might break or there might be too much pressure on the skin. Anyway it doesn’t follow that if you have big hands you need a longer qianjin to bridge length, violins have a noticably shorter one and people seem to manage OK :-)

[annk]

sanmenxia said:

...The strings are still tuned to roughly the same tension as using a normal qianjin in standard D and A. The upper string qianjin by itself would give a lower pitch because of the longer vibrating string length.

Ahhh, now it's starting to make sense to me. Of course, if the strings are tuned to the same tension that one would use if the traditional qianjin were in place, the pitch of the strings will be lower when the Gao qianjin is not in play, because they will be vibrating from the point of the upper qianjin. So in the end, I still tune the strings to approximately the same tension, regardless. Thanks for clearing that up, it didn't occur to me!!

I understood that the QQQianjin acts as a capo, I just had a (wrong!) idea that I would have to tighten the strings differently.

By the way, Song, I am trying out the new bow for the first time this evening. I really like it, the bamboo is much stiffer than my other bow, and I find it is easier to get a good sound. I was surprise to see that the bamboo pole actually curves outward, away from the hair. The bamboo on my other bow remains straight, but now, after having played with the new one, the old one feels flimsy.

[sanmenxia]

Annk, glad I could help.
I’ve been thinking I might try this type of qianjin, (it should quite easy and cheap to do; just need some string and a small piece of wood :-) ) because it will make the string tension slightly lower whilst keeping the D,A tuning and the vibrating string length the same, so it might be usable as a way to adjust the tone a little bit.

[song]

I'm glad you like the bow Ann. Careful not to turn the bow too tight. Erhu bows are suppose to have some slack, unlike the violin bow. Did the felt help as well?

[annk]

song said:

I'm glad you like the bow Ann. Careful not to turn the bow too tight. Erhu bows are suppose to have some slack, unlike the bow. Did the felt help as well?

I'm keeping the bow pretty loose, a lot looser than I would for my violin bow, that's for sure. What surprised me about the new bow, is that the stick is arched out away from the hair quite a bit more than my old bow - it's a noticable arch. But I remember you telling me it might be a bit stiffer than my old bow, and the arching seems to be part of that. I must say I greatly prefer it!

I think the felt is helping as well, although I wasn't patient enough to try out one new thing at a time, I had to play with both new toys at once! So I can't be sure what exactly has improved the sound. One thing is sure - - my high notes on the A string were whistling before, and now I can play them fine. So it's either the better bow, or the felt.

[YouLanFengChune]

Hi!
could u help take a pictur of your erhu and the QQQiangqin?

thanks!

[damien]

It wouldn't surprise me if it's the felt as i bought a new bow but still have the original ripped piece of jean on there. The sound of my A string isn't right either and i know it's not the bridge.
It's not so much scratchy sounding but it sounds like the string is too loose when it's not.

Probably the wrong place to type this so i don't expect a reply, i think i will just get myself some felt and make it thicker.

I will ask what material you used for the dampner though?

[sanmenxia]

I think I got it wrong when I said using the qqqianjin will "make the string tension slightly lower whilst keeping the D,A tuning and the vibrating string length the same" because actually for a certain length of string to produce a certain note the tension must be the same, ie you can't change the tension while keeping the D,A tuning and the vibrating string length the same.

[sanmenxia]

I use a folded piece of felt, I also put a small piece of sponge between the felt and the bridge and push up the felt so it squeezes the sponge aginst the bridge, but every erhu is different , you need to experiment with different bridges and pads to get the best sound.

[annk]

I'll post a pic of my erhu with the QQQianjin when I finally get up the guts to put it on. I'm having a lesson on either the 7th or the 11th, I'm planning on installing it after that.

I've fooled around with the placement of the felt, and right now it's about half way between the bridge and the bottom of the instrument. The whistling on high notes is gone, and the sound actually seems a bit louder - - or maybe it's just more focussed.

[YouLanFengChune]

we use it as a wolf eliminator, as well as a relieve of pressure off the bridge.

[maaltan]

doesn't the gao erhu use a synthetic head? how is that working for you? has your teacher commented about it at all?

[annk]

Yes, the head is synthetic. I'll post the promised pictures this week, things have been a bit hectic over the holidays.

To be honest, I'm not sure that it's useful for me. I'm using it now as if it had been a regular qianjin, just in the usual spot. You have to tie the upper qianjin tight enough that you get some tension when using the synthetic head in the a/d position, so you're pretty limited as far as putting it farther up toward the pegs. If you release it completely, you have a lower tuning, but of course the strings are made to sound their best at d and a.

I haven't shown it to a teacher yet. I've learned of an accomplisher erhu player and teacher in Copenhagen, so I'm going to call and ask for a lesson.

[annk]

Ok, finally, the pictures of the QQQianjin, as promised.

I've also included other pics, to show more of the instrument. I know what the characters along the top mean, and that it says China Suzhou, but am stuck as to the four characters that I believe show the maker (I sat with a book of seal-style characters for over an hour, but only managed to identify a few radicals ). So if anyone can help me out there, I'd appreicate it. I bought the erhu in Shanghai, but I don't know where the store gets its erhus.

The bridge is in the position I was told to have it "不用的时候" by the man who gave me a lesson on it when I bought it ("when not in use" - he seemed pretty adamant about it, and I think he said it was so that there was less pressure on the snake skin).

[davidmdahl]

Interesting pics. Thanks!

It is a good idea to take the pressure off of the skin when the erhu is not being played. Instead of moving the bridge to the edge, I use a section of pencil with tape wrapped at the ends and middle to increase the thickness. The pencil is inserted under the strings next to the bridge. I don't know that it is necessarily better than moving the bridge, but the pencil method is what my teacher recommends.

The head looks like real snake skin. Is it really synthetic?

Best wishes,

David

[Charlie Huang]

The two characters you're confused about reads 蘇梘 ('Sujian').

[annk]

Thank you so much for the translation CCC, but I'm confused about all four! (I meant that I know what's along the side of the peg box - one of my Chinese professors told me.) But what are the two above, in what I assume is the maker's signature (or at least two or three characters must be the maker??)? My professor says she thinks perhaps it's "made by Su Liangfa", but she's not sure.

And David - I believe it's real snake skin, I got the little credit-card like certificate that showed it was made as part of the quota on snakes.

I'm not sure about the qianjin I tied - it needs to be tight enough that some tension is created against the QQQ head, but maybe I tied it too tight?

[calden]

annk:

Nice, clear pics. Thanks. Don't you love that seal script stuff?

Carlos

[Charlie Huang]

OK, entire transcription of the characters on the peg box reads: 明月松間照清泉石上流 meaning 'the bright moon between the pine shines on the clear spring flowing on the rocks'.

Maker's seal: 蘇梘發製 = made by Su Jian.

Thank the stars I have the 中國書法大字典 on hand...

[annk]

admin said:

OK, entire transcription of the characters on the peg box reads: 明月松間照清泉石上流 meaning 'the bright moon between the pine shines on the clear spring flowing on the rocks'.

Maker's seal: 蘇梘發製 = made by Su Jian.

Thank the stars I have the 中國書法大字典 on hand...

Thank you so much! That is a zi dian I am definitely going to get, I didn't know it existed. It's a dictionary of calligraphy?

[calden]

WHAT!!!

As I read your post, CCC, and your response, annk, I thought, Hmmm, Zhong Guo Shu Fa Da Zi Dean, and looked over to my bookshelf and saw..


Small world! Note the clever positioning of CCC's post on the computer in the background.

Carlos

[Charlie Huang]

Bloody hell! That's the one! LOL!


Also note clever positioning...

One thing, mines seem to have a printing error, pages 1065 to 1080 is repeated so pages 1081 to 1096 is missing. Does that exist in your's or is it only me?

Annk: Go to www.hanshan.com , click on [Subjects], then [C], scroll down to the calligraphy list on the left and there are literally hundreds of books to do with Chinese calligraphy. Our book is near the bottom of the section together with other calligraphy dictionaries that specialise in a said script. It costs £35, though I got it for £19 at a shop... *snigger*

EDIT: Ooo! 1,100 posts already...