Question about fine tuners

[annk]

I know there are probably differing opinions about whether or not to use fine tuners, but my question is purely technical. Right now I'm not so concerned with whether or not it's wise to use them.

I've seen mention of using the same sort of fine tuners one uses on a violin, but I don't see how that's possible. I play violin, and my fine tuners are constructed such that they HAVE to have a tailpiece to be anchored in. There's only one place to attach a string. The pictures I've seen online of erhus with fine tuners, seem to show that the string is actually cut, and one end is attached to each side of the fine tuners.

I can't find any pictures or advertisements online for fine tuners specifically designed for erhus, so I haven't seen any true close-ups of the kind used on an erhu.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Edit: I found the Wittner tuners on eBay, and see that the strings are threaded through them. I've bought two, and am curious to see how they will function.

[maaltan]

I don't have any (so take this with a grain of salt) but i always envisioned them working like a pinch valve. This comes from various descriptions from people that use them.

Basically, a metal piece presses on the string deforming it slightly into a die of some sort therefore stretching (and stressing) the string.

Let me know how they work, how well they work, etc, when you get them. I am interested in seeing if my imagination matches reality.

[calden]

I tried fine tuners and found them to be overkill. I can tune my erhus fine without using them. I must be a fine tuner myself!

Carlos

[davidmdahl]

Initially the D peg on my erhu would not turn smoothly, so I found a fine-tuner on the D string helpful. After some work on the peg to get it to seat properly I don't need the fine-tuner anymore.

If you must use a fine-tuner, be careful get the tuning as close as possible with the peg so you don't need to bend the string much with the fine-tuner.

Since they can be hard on strings, I suggest using fine-tuners only if you need them to tune accurately.

Best wishes,

David

[sanmenxia]

I used to have them on my erhu, they were useful as the pegs (wooden) didn't turn very smoothly, but I took them off because they spoiled the looks of the erhu. They're particularly useful for small temporary adjustments, eg playing along to different recordings.

Have you found the type used on erhus? I'm not sure but I think they're the type used on small sized violins. They fit onto the string by itself, it's basically a screw pushing on the string.

[calden]

Looks like this:



just sits on the string. When you turn the screw, the post pushes downward on the string (which goes through it horizontally) and thus tightens it slightly.

Carlos

[annk]

I have found the correct type, they were sent out to me this weekend, and I'll let you all know how they work out.

Having played violin for many years, I'm familiar with how to use fine tuners. I think I'll find them to be an extra help on erhu, since I'm used to tuning while playing two strings together. It's a lot faster and easier to hear when the overtones "click" when you're drawing your bow over a fifth, than over one string at a time.

If nothing else, it will be interesting to try them out. They're not at all expensive, so it's a low-risk project, at any rate!

Now - has anyone tried the George Gao 千斤?? It looks like a very clever concept, making the instrument more versatile. I don't like the way it changes the instrument's looks, but I saw from the demo that it would eliminate the need for more than one instrument.

I also tried Gao's introductory lessons, and was amazed at how well they worked for me. I was sceptical to begin with, but many of my big questions were answered. I wonder a bit if I found them so useful because I already have a lot of background, both as a string player and a musician. It seemed he addressed all the things I wondered about that were different from Western strings. Maybe they're not as good for someone literally starting from scratch??

I loved the phrase-by-phrase explanation he does of the Meng Jiang piece, since the ornamentation and phrasing is so different from Western music. And it was lots of fun to play along with the music-minus-one track.

Anyone else have any experience with the Gao lessons, or opinions to share?

[calden]

annk:

I bought the George Gao introduction to erhu CD (can't remember the actual name offhand) and found it to be way too elementary for me, and way too short, not helpful at all. I gave it away to someone. However, I love his playing!

I think that your background in violin helps you immensely. I gave an erhu workshop lecture-demo to a strings camp, and one of the instructors sat down and did everything correctly right off the bat. Great posture, excellent bow position, wonderful tone and vibrato. I asked her if she had played before, and she said "no, but I listen very well, and your explanation was very good."

I've found that once a student can grasp the idea of solid bow-to-string contact, something clicks with the sound and the playing. All that is already resolved with a seasoned string player. Just don't let violin technique (hand position, etc.) determine how you play erhu. There are some fundamental differences. For example, it seems to me that the low E (first finger D string) sounds better flatter than what I would play it on a violin. I don't know if this is because of the nut vs. qianjin, or an actual temperiing difference in the scale, but I am always finding myself correcting downward, to make it sound "better," from what my fingers want to play.

Carlos

[annk]

Hi Carlos,

It's interesting that you mention that "e". Of all the notes in first position on both strings, I have a terrible time making a good sound on that one note, getting it to resonate. It whistles like mad. It's frustrating. Maybe I should aim just a hair lower?

I'm also a bit lost about the felt/sponge that should be wedged in below the bridge. I've read that this improves the sound, but have no idea how tightly it should be wedged in, and how to wedge it in without doing damage. Any tips anyone can offer there would be greatly appreciated!

[calden]

annk:

The felt/sponge piece should be just big enough so that you need to compress it a little to get it in there. It takes off the harsh edge of the sound. There are extra overtones that come from that area of the head under the strings, and from the short section of strings between the bridge and the tail end. The felt dampens all these stray tones. I use mine as a volume control - when it's pushed up right next to the bridge it has the most effect. I can slide it downward, away from the bridge, and the overtones and harsh edge come into play a little, making it louder.

The overtones are much more present when one is playing hard. I remember doing a piece with our fledgling orchestra - about three years ago - that included a cello, violin, flute, electric keyboard, saxophone - basically every musically inclined Chinese teenager in our community was recruited. I wanted more volume, so removed the felt completely. When I leaned into the strings I got nothing but screechy notes. It was really terrible. It might be that the short section of string between the end and the bridge actually vibrates against the head, and the felt prevents this.

About that low E note not sounding right - I bet you need to dig in a bit more with the bow on the attack. It could be that with some felt/sponge the whistling will go away, too.

I remember my first six months of learning erhu that there were some notes that just didn't want to be played. I attributed this to my poor but developing bow technique and that some notes, because of that particular note's string length, would "catch" with the bow and not let the bow grab it right away. One thing that one of my teachers constantly told me was to "play harder." The exercises I did were to be played with a full bow - total frog to tip - as hard as I could at a moderate-slow tempo. As I developed this, being able to apply full pressure right at the beginning of each bow, up or down bow, my problems with certain notes sounding "skatey" began to go away.

This is a funny instrument, often belying expectations. If you listen to something like the 12 girls band, the erhus sound nice and sweet and without a lot of punch. But if you hear a really good player up close, you'll find that they are really, really, playing very hard and loud, and the bow attack on the string isn't a light touch. Even the very softest bowings have a very firm and definite grab on the string at the outset of the note.

Carlos

[YouLanFengChune]

The taiwanese are CRAZY about how they tune/finetune/adjust an erhu. They are my best customers, and best distribution channel, and i learnt a few things from them.

1 -(sorry calden) NO SPONGE CAKE. they apprarently thought -and i seconded-sponge removes the imbalance in some skin, but it does not do its real job well. That is to relivee th excess pressure off the centre of the skin thru the bridge, causing the "hollow" sound.

2 - qianjin. Many variations. I have discussed and put one on line. This is the best variation so far, employed in my music school. BY far, it is the most stable, most efficient, and ties without you seeing a knot!
www.cadenzamusic.biz/qianjin.htm

[calden]

Yinhao:

So you're saying you prefer to use only felt? That's what I use. I've seen both felt and foam rubber ("sponge cake"). By the way, "hollow" is a good way to describe the sound without any padding of any sort. Way too many overtones going on.

Carlos

[maaltan]

I got some fine tuners to test with(because im bored . according to my psudeo-scientific research, they are nice for the tone perfect people but like Carlos said, a bit overkill.

also, I can verify it does change the tone. Its not bad a bad change as such but there is a percievable difference. Also, since there is more weight on the top part of the strings near the tuning pegs, it allows that second of the string to gain momentum and tactilely and audibly vibrate I noticed it first on my D string. for a split second after i stopped bowing i noticed my finger was still tingling like i was still playing. after paying attention to it i noticed that there is a very faint fade effect. Sort of like an echo. Again this isn't bad, just a change. It might even be usable in some circumstances.

[song]

Maaltan, I've always enjoyed your scientific analysis.

Fine tuners give a faint reverb to the erhu, I have to test that hypothesis...It'll be something cool to add to my ebay description of fine tuners.

[calden]

Hey - someone could really muck with tradition here. Imagine an erhu with a small, attached sound chamber on the body, with a few short sympathetic strings tuned to D, A, and maybe G.

carlos

[davidmdahl]

calden said:

Hey - someone could really muck with tradition here. Imagine an erhu with a small, attached sound chamber on the body, with a few short sympathetic strings tuned to D, A, and maybe G.

carlos

A Hardanger erhu? Cool! <g>

Best wishes,

David

[sanmenxia]

I've never thought about the part of the string from the pegs to the qianjin vibrating. I did once see a erhu that had a small piece of felt jammed between the strings above the qianjin, so that have must been to stop or damp any vibrations.

Trying to tune my erhu which has sticky pegs but without fine tuners is a right pain in the ****! I think I need to find a way to make them turn more smoothly. Personally I think you can't overestimate the importance of tuning, after all playing notes of the correct pitch is a basic fundamental of music. I think all unfretted string players should be obsessed with tuning and intonation, unless if you're a genius, who would regard playing tune a mere technical formality.

I've seen some erhus with fine tuners built into the base, I think they were from Shanghai I'm not sure but they weren't top grade erhus, more like beginner to middle quality.

[sanmenxia]

There's also another way to fine tune using two extra loops of thin string, each one tied to each string around the string and neck between the peg and qianjin, as you slide the loop up and down it bends the string by different amounts, so varying the pitch.

[maaltan]

sanmenxia said:

I've never thought about the part of the string from the pegs to the qianjin vibrating. I did once see a erhu that had a small piece of felt jammed between the strings above the qianjin, so that have must been to stop or damp any vibrations.

From what i understand, the size of the qianjin determines how much the upper sections of the strings vibrate.

I would assume by adding a few more loops to your qianjin or using a heavier string would eliminate the resonance (or at least isolate it) caused by the extra weight of the strings.

I guess the inverse would be true. If you like the reverb a smaller qianjin might enhance it.

ALso I have noticed i the effect changes depending on where on the upper string the tuner is added. I assume the placement is mathmatically predicable. Harmonics still facinate me. watch out for the lower tuner touching the D string. makes a horrible buzzing sound.

I remember reading about wolf tone eliminators which are small weights added to some strings on a violin (and other bowed instruments) I guess this is similar.