erhu jainpu question (discussion of harmonics)

[maaltan]

I have a question. What does a little circle over a note mean? in the book it has <circle> or <diamond> 自然泛音和人工泛音. which i think translates to natural overtone or artificial overtone (according to google). I cant begin to think what that might mean in musical terms.

Specifically it appears above 5 (in G) in the first measure after the tempo change in huai xiang xing and about every other 5 thereafter.

thanks

[davidmdahl]

My understanding is that the circle and other symbols over the 5 in the score indicate that the harmonic of 5 is to be played with the fourth finger (pinky) on the inside (D) string. A harmonic has a sort of an ethereal disembodied sound.

Best wishes,

David

[maaltan]

interesting article on harmonics

www.musicalobservations.com/publications/docs/1968_harmonics.pdf#search=%22natural%20harmonic%20violin%22

must study. Basically you either nullify the fundamental note or one of the subharmonics to get whatever effect your supposed to get by very lightly tapping or holding the string. Sort of like half stopping the string. I never dreamed you could do that.

Using this document i have found that i can tap the outside string at a5 and it keeps playing a slightly funny a5 until i stop bowing. Overall its pretty neat. might be useful for a time limited change of hand position. d5 on the inside string will not hold but it explains the "problem" i mentioned elsewere about a note not releasing. Other than that i am just making noise.



edit: OK .. im scared now. all of the sudden firefox has decided it would resolve anything i type into the address bar "d5 on the inside string will not hold but it explains the "problem" i mentioned elsewere about a note not releasing. " resolves as some politcal blog. "what is this new feature" resolves to open office. WTH. do i have spyware?

[sanmenxia]

Playing harmonics on string instruments is a standard technique, you touch the string with your left finger instead of pressing it. Isn't there a piece for the guqin which is all or nearly all in harmonics? Anyway, passages in harmonics is common in guqin music.
In erhu music the most common harmonic is the octave eg the last note in Liang Xiao, but there are more harmonics in Jiangnan Chun Se (Jiangnan spring scenery) ½­ÄÏ´ºÉ«; fifths, fourths, major thirds. From that article, it's interesting to note that the equal temperment major third is sharper then the "natural" or "just" major third, or to put it the other way; the "natural" or "just" major third is flatter then the equal temperment major third.

[maaltan]

Ok you lost me at liang xiao.

ok using liang xiao for an example

              . .     . o x
3 5 | 6 1 | 2 1 2 | 6 1 5 5

where x is the 4th finger inside string

what string to i partially stop and where for the first 5?

again. There are only 1 place on each string (1st octave) that doesnt result in horrible screaching. What causes this?

I feel im going to be a total dunce about this subject so i appologize in advance for my annoyance.

[sanmenxia]

No wonder you're confused! :-) that o above 5 means open string, so you first play 5 (outside open string) then 5 inside string with 4th finger. The symbol for a harmonic is a circle whereas for open string it's usually the top bit of kong ¿Õ (empty), but some books use a circle for open string and x for 4th finger.

To get a clear harmonic your finger has to be touching the right bit of the string. If you're not getting a clear ringing sound moved your finger around a bit and keep a strong and steady bow. Also if you move your finger up and down the string while you bow, you can hear the different harmonics appearing and disappearing as your finger passes over the nodes.

[sanmenxia]

Also I just had a look at Liang xiao, that last note is written as a normal fingered note, but it seems to be commonly played as a harmonic.

[maaltan]

my copy uses the chinese character for 4 and open string character. i put an X because i was lazy

Its a zero i think. taller than wide

apparently harmonics normally isn't something attempted or taught until one has 10+ years experience with the instrument. It is definately several orders of magnitude more complex than just bowing and fingering.

Basically im trying to figure out how to read the music more than play it at this time. Maybe goof around with it when i get bored.

[YouLanFengChune]

Hmm...

Carman Fantasy on Erhu, First, Second and Third Rhapsody of Erhu and almost all modern pieces use the harmonics, either artificial or natural to the MAX.

[davidmdahl]

maaltan said:

apparently harmonics normally isn't something attempted or taught until one has 10+ years experience with the instrument. It is definately several orders of magnitude more complex than just bowing and fingering.

I don't remember exactly when I first ran across harmonics during my erhu lessons, but it was definitely within my first year. Don't let harmonics intimidate you too much. They are not that hard if you don't think they are. <g>

Best wishes,

David

[sanmenxia]

mmm..."10+ years experience"...sounds like a slight exaggeration! like those sushi chefs who say you need to train for ten years before you can make sushi

IMHO as soon as you can play a normal fingered note, whether in tune or not, you can play a harmonic. You don't even need a good ear, if your finger is not touching the string at the right place, you just get a muffled screeching sound.

[maaltan]

Im still trying it. I cant get a "good" sound. the way i understand it, the harmonic at the octave mark is mathmatically the same as stopping the string. You nullify the fundamental and even (?) numbered harmonics allowing the string above and below to vibrate exatly the same way as the bottom of the string would if you fully stopped it at d5.

I can sort of verify this. the octave mark harmonic sounds like a sloppy d5. I dont like the sound at all. It is supposed to sound pleasent?

I found one near f# on the inside string that sounds like a VERY faint d5. Im talking "silent" passages of guqin music quiet. If i force it louder it breaks.

It appears that harmonics allow you to play the same note in several places on the string.

[sanmenxia]

As I understand it, the sound of a vibrating string is made up of the fundamental note plus all the higher pitch overtones or partials, it's what gives an instrument its timbre. When you play a harmonic you are isolating a particular overtone, so the sound you get has a sort of pure but faint quality. Yes the octave harmonic node (place where you touch the string) is in exactly the middle of the string, you'll get the same harmonic at F sharp and at B on the D string (and also other places along the string).

The place on the string to play a fingered octave note is not exactly halfway though, because if you press the string at exactly the halfway point, the bending of the string will make the octave a bit too sharp.

[maaltan]

arrg. i cant get it. i get a screech or no sound at all. I think this is a point that MUST be demonstrated.


ill give it anothrr shot later

[sanmenxia]

Try bowing with less pressure, and varying how hard you touch with your left finger, also the position has to be spot on, so move your finger up and down a bit, the harmonic will suddenly appear when it's in in the right place. The easiest harmonics seem to be octave on the A string and the one at F sharp on the D string.

[maaltan]

i did some objective measurements of the frequencies. Let me list my results. All are natural harmonics. The format is in the following order: acutal fingering position, apparent fundemental(the note ap tuner reads), comparative volume(same bowing pressure as a fully stopped note):

inside string:

f#4 , f#6, ~25%
b4(?), f#6, ~25%
g4, d6 or g5(unstable), ~75%
d5, d5, 100%
f#5, f#6
>everything too close together from there down

ouside string
b4, unstable g6/d6/c#6, 75%
a5, a5, 100%

thats about all i can get steady enough to measure.

Is this the results im supposed to be getting or am i still way off?

Thanks again for your help.