Small questionnaire for you all!

[ling]

Hi everyone! I discovered a gold-mine when I found this Erhu forum This Saturday, I'll be taking my very first erhu lesson (Thanks to ACCA, the Australian Chinese Community Association). My teacher will bring me my very own $380 ebony erhu and it'll be my first time touching an erhu! So as you can probably tell, I'm a really excited 19 yr old. ;D

So to prepare myself for what's coming and to learn more about learning the erhu...I'd really appreciate it if you could take a few minutes to answer just a few questions:

1) Why did you want to learn the erhu in the first place? And why this instrument, of all the other Chinese ones?

2) What were some of the problems or confusions you had in the beginning? And were these easy to overcome?

3) How long was it until you could play a nice-sounding melody?

4) If a LOT of hard practice and enthusiasm was put in, how long do you think it would take a person to sound good enough to perform?

5) Umm...is it possible for the steel strings to break while you're playing?..Because that'd hurt for sure..

6) Do you prefer
- faster songs like 'Horse Racing'
- pleasant but slower ones like 'Blooming Flowers, Full Moon' played by Karen Han www.karenhan.com/fullmoon.mp3
- or the really depressing ones that sound as if someone is crying?

7) In your opinion, what is the most important thing to remember when wanting to make a piece of music sound good on the erhu?

8) Here's a question about legality. Because of the controversial use of snake/python skin on the erhu, will I be able to take my erhu to Hong Kong and back to Australia with no problem? I hope this isn't a dumb question...

[maaltan]

ling said:

Hi everyone! I discovered a gold-mine when I found this Erhu forum This Saturday, I'll be taking my very first erhu lesson (Thanks to ACCA, the Australian Chinese Community Association). My teacher will bring me my very own $380 ebony erhu and it'll be my first time touching an erhu! So as you can probably tell, I'm a really excited 19 yr old. ;D

So to prepare myself for what's coming and to learn more about learning the erhu...I'd really appreciate it if you could take a few minutes to answer just a few questions:

Ok the quote tags are annoying so forgive me for breaking your questions out. First off i have been learning for about 2 months without a teacher other than the kind people on this forum in the middle eastern USA. The closest people who dont see the erhu as some sort of deformed stick vac are at least a 12hour drive away.

1) Why did you want to learn the erhu in the first place? And why this instrument, of all the other Chinese ones?

Unfortunately, It boiled down to price. I wasn't sure if I would have any interest in learning music past the initial "new toy" phase. I also have a limited "entertainment" income. I have come to like the erhu. My original choices in order of preference were:

1. (gu)Qin- at $1000US i couldn't justify the price.
2. pipa - tough call, I almost went that way, at $250 for a really cheap LOOKING instrument i was almost positive would be horrible i went with third choice.
3. Erhu - $175 ebay purchase, its... ok. After replacing strings, bridge, rosin, and bow (a total of $30 investment) it is sounding a whole lot better but still pretty horible vs what i hear on cd's. Of course im sure my skill have something to do with it .
4. Guzheng - no space. i live in a 17'x14' economy appartment crammed full of junk
5. Dizi - sounds interesting looks easy to learn, but having asthma limits my future with wind insruments.


2) What were some of the problems or confusions you had in the beginning? And were these easy to overcome?

I am still in beginning. changing strings in the middle of a slur is my biggest problem. The bow bounces or squeaks half the time. Also, that 4th finger position is hard to hit precisely.

3) How long was it until you could play a nice-sounding melody?

Well at 2 months averaging 2-3 hrs a day practice, I'm pushing it. I have plateaued on my first song and Im very slowly beating out the dynamic variance and overall tone.

4) If a LOT of hard practice and enthusiasm was put in, how long do you think it would take a person to sound good enough to perform?

Too hard to answer without more information. I'll leave this for others to answer.

5) Umm...is it possible for the steel strings to break while you're playing?..Because that'd hurt for sure..

Yes, I broke my first string first day i had it while playing . I would have to guess and say that the possibilty for injury is minimal .. if it broke at tuning pegs like mine did, the qianjin should contain the flying metal. If it breaks closer to resinator box it might sting, but unlike a violin, the tightly strung metal is far away from the eyes.

6) Do you prefer
- pleasant but slower ones like 'Blooming Flowers, Full Moon' played by Karen Han www.karenhan.com/fullmoon.mp3

my current favorite is erquan yingyue. It's cliche favorite (also one that cant be played on a standard erhu) but i havn't heard much yet .

- or the really depressing ones that sound as if someone is crying?

A few, I usually favor these type songs. I prefer ones that have a mix of emotions in them though. Like "lament of river house." (i would really like to find sheet music for that if anybody has it).

7) In your opinion, what is the most important thing to remember when wanting to make a piece of music sound good on the erhu?

Bowing, I have noticed that fingerings can be fudged if needed. I have found at least a couple of ways to fix a misfingered note. A bit of vibrato if its close or a slide (sounding like an improvised flourish to the audience) to the correct note if not. Of course, I cannot do either effortlessly, but the theory is sound.

Bowing technique cannot be fudged in my limited experience.

8) Here's a question about legality. Because of the controversial use of snake/python skin on the erhu, will I be able to take my erhu to Hong Kong and back to Australia with no problem? I hope this isn't a dumb question...

i did a little research about this. Mine was cheap and questionable legality and came with no papers. I found that legal imported erhu's come with a certificate/license. I assume this is an actual sheet of paper you can keep with the erhu. If you have this paper, i don't see how they can deny you.

I would like a good solid answer on this one if anyone can provide one.

whooh i actually finished it. I thought i would have to come back later. I hope my limited knowledge helps you.

[YouLanFengChune]

Hi!

$380 for ebony Erhu is actually very high. Ebony is lower quality than Aged rosewood.

The Validity license comes with Cadenza Erhus. Its given FREE OF CHARGE for erhus exported. You should check out www.cadenzamusic.biz/cites.htm
We have sent many erhus to Australia before, and perhaps you could ask around.

Welcome to the chinese music community.

[davidmdahl]

youlanfengchune said:

Hi!

$380 for ebony Erhu is actually very high. Ebony is lower quality than Aged rosewood.

Ling is probably talking Australian $ rather than USD. Is that still high?

Hey, Ling, having your teacher pick out your first erhu is a good idea. When you have more experience, you may want a better instrument, or this one may suit your purposes for a long time.

Regarding traveling with your erhu, I suggest contacting your local authorities. All we can do is guess. If it were me, I would not take my best or only erhu on an international trip.

Keep asking questions, and post a photo of your erhu when you can.

Good luck and have fun with the lessons.

Best wishes,

David

[paulv]

Hi Ling,
Welcome to the forum and here are my answers to your questionaire:

1) Love the sound of the erhu
2) No confusion but a problem with using the entire length of the bow while playing -- overcame that after a few months. By the way, since I was much older than a typical student, I understood the bow/string contact and didn't have many screeching sounds in the beginning,
3) Almost immediately -- my first practice song was about 16 bars long.
4) After 11 months of lessons, I performed with an ensemble. I would estimate that a person could play solo after a couple of years. Of course, this varies from person to person.
5) Yes, and you will find that the outside, thin, "A" string breaks before the "D" string. I had one break while I was playing but didn't get hit with it.
6) I like slow, pleasant and sad songs mostly but also enjoy the faster ones.
7) Practice, practice, practice!!
8) Sorry, can't help on this one.

Regards,
paul...

[sanmenxia]

1) Why did you want to learn the erhu in the first place? And why this instrument, of all the other Chinese ones?

I think most don¡¯t ¡°choose¡± an instrument, it¡¯s more from a deep feeling they have to need to learn to play a certain instrument

4) If a LOT of hard practice and enthusiasm was put in, how long do you think it would take a person to sound good enough to perform?

Obviuosly it depends on the person.

5) Umm...is it possible for the steel strings to break while you're playing?..Because that'd hurt for sure..

I think in normal use they don¡¯t break, I¡¯ve only ever broken a string because I was over tightening it.

6) Do you prefer
- faster songs like 'Horse Racing'
- pleasant but slower ones like 'Blooming Flowers, Full Moon' played by Karen Han www.karenhan.com/fullmoon.mp3
- or the really depressing ones that sound as if someone is crying?

I prefer lyrical pieces, up tempo ones are also OK, the only piece I can think of that I don¡¯t really like to listen to is Jiang he shui (river water).

7) In your opinion, what is the most important thing to remember when wanting to make a piece of music sound good on the erhu?

For the beginner, good intonation.
For advanced players, tone and vibrato.

8) Here's a question about legality. Because of the controversial use of snake/python skin on the erhu, will I be able to take my erhu to Hong Kong and back to Australia with no problem? I hope this isn't a dumb question...

Just a guess, but I think taking one erhu for personal use should be OK.

[calden]

Hey ling:

Welcome to the forum and the community. Here is my take on your questions:

1) Why did you want to learn the erhu in the first place? And why this instrument, of all the other Chinese ones?

I studied Chinese in college, met my wife in a Chinese class, and after we married we lived in China for a year teaching English. Quite an experience in 1986. I'm a musician, so while there I studied pipa. Returned to China four years ago (Went a week after 9/11) and picked up an erhu because it was easier to tote along than anything else. Then visited Taiwan and found a great teacher who gave me some good lessons and sold me a great book, and I was HOOKED FOR LIFE.

2) What were some of the problems or confusions you had in the beginning? And were these easy to overcome?

Biggest problem was getting full clear sound the length of the bow. Practice overcomes all.

3) How long was it until you could play a nice-sounding melody?

Maybe two or three months.

4) If a LOT of hard practice and enthusiasm was put in, how long do you think it would take a person to sound good enough to perform?

Depends. If you're a musical natural, with some experience with other instruments, maybe four months. We're talking two hours a day practice.

5) Umm...is it possible for the steel strings to break while you're playing?..Because that'd hurt for sure..

I have never had an erhu string break. I don't think it would hurt, either. I've broken plenty of guitar and cittern and banjo strings while performing (Irish music) and it just simply pops. And those are under MUCH more tension than erhu strings.

6) Do you prefer
- faster songs like 'Horse Racing'
- pleasant but slower ones like 'Blooming Flowers, Full Moon' played by Karen Han www.karenhan.com/fullmoon.mp3
- or the really depressing ones that sound as if someone is crying?

I like 'em all, but really enjoy playing Liang Xiao, a slow-ish expressive piece. The slower ones are harder to play well. Sai Ma can be more or less succesfully sawed through with little subtlety and it still sounds good.

7) In your opinion, what is the most important thing to remember when wanting to make a piece of music sound good on the erhu?

Full bow use, steady and consistent contact between bow and string where the bow is solidly "attached" to the string, and good posture.

8) Here's a question about legality. Because of the controversial use of snake/python skin on the erhu, will I be able to take my erhu to Hong Kong and back to Australia with no problem? I hope this isn't a dumb question...

Only if you bribe the customs guys with Foster's.

Carlos

[maaltan]

quick factoid.

google tells me that:

380 Australian dollars = 278.99600 U.S. dollars

[davidmdahl]

Hello Ling,

1) I love the expressive qualities of the erhu and the rich body of music available to play on it.

2) Challenges include getting good sound throughout the range of the erhu, intonation, and control of vibrato.

3) That depends on who you ask. <g> I thought Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star sounded pretty good from the very beginning. It was probably a couple of months before I sounded good on a Chinese tune. Even after a year, my wife and cat would rather not be in the same room as me and my erhu.

4) Difficult to answer. Some people could be ready rather quickly with a strong musical background, good ear, and good instruction.

5) I have broken strings while tightening the pegs, but never while playing.

6) I prefer lyrical tunes.

7) Like when playing other instruments, I don't think that there is any one thing that is more important than the rest. Everything has to be right before a tune will sound good, including intonation, rhythm, phrasing, bowing technique.

My intention on learning the play the erhu, is to not be in a hurry, but to learn the basics well and enjoy every step of the way. I have found the erhu deeply satisfying to practice, even when the sound to the unlucky observer sounded like violence to a cat.

Best wishes,

David

[ling]

Wow, Thankyou so much for the welcome and for replying me! I didn't expect to get so many so fast...

The reason I asked about taking the erhu overseas is because I'm going to study in Hong Kong for a whole 5 months and if I don't practice for that long, I'll be wasting the lessons I'm having now...Oh yea, and I wouldn't dare to bribe
And yep, I'm talking about Australian dollars. My teacher said that a professional erhu (the one she has) is around $800 AUD - and my one is intermediate.

Thanks for the currency convertion, maaltan! So what kind of quality is a $280 U.S. dollars erhu...because I'm guessing most of you are in the States.

I'll take all your tips and suggestions into consideration! Thankyou! ;D Can't wait til Saturday...

[davidmdahl]

ling said:

The reason I asked about taking the erhu overseas is because I'm going to study in Hong Kong for a whole 5 months and if I don't practice for that long, I'll be wasting the lessons I'm having now...

Ah, I see. Can you afford to buy a cheap (or good) erhu in HK for practicing? If not, I still suggest contacting the relevant authorities in Australia and HK. In the USA, it is apparently possible to file some paperwork with customs indicating that the instrument accompanied you during the trip and is not an import. The part I would be concerned with is the snake skin. I don't know how uptight Australia and HK are about that.

Best wishes,

David

[ling]

I'll be sure to ask the authorities about it as the time comes near! Thankyou David

Can I please ask a question about scales? Yesterday, my teacher taught me how to hold the bow right, and how to play the two strings which I can do fine. Next week, she'll probably be teaching me scales and I want to be a bit more in-the-know before then.

Unlike guitars, there aren't any lines on the neck of the erhu indicating which notes are played where. So how do erhu players know which note is played where...or is it just a memory thing?

And about rosin, what is it used for and when? What happens if, for instance, I don't use any after a while?

[calden]

ling said:

Can I please ask a question about scales? Yesterday, my teacher taught me how to hold the bow right, and how to play the two strings which I can do fine. Next week, she'll probably be teaching me scales and I want to be a bit more in-the-know before then.

Unlike guitars, there aren't any lines on the neck of the erhu indicating which notes are played where. So how do erhu players know which note is played where...or is it just a memory thing?

And about rosin, what is it used for and when? What happens if, for instance, I don't use any after a while?

Have you ever fooled around with a violin? The fingerings are very similar, but the erhu scale length is a little longer so the finger positions have a bit more spread. And, yes, it's memory - when you practice scales your ear will begin to tell you where to put your fingers, then after lots of practice your fingers will start to "know" where to go automatically.

The best advice I can give you is let your teacher tell you. She can show you more in 10 seconds than any of us could explain in five paragraphs of words, and that's no exaggeration. She'll also answer your questions about rosin - how much to put on and when. A lot of it depends on your playing style and needs and quality of horsehair on the bow.

I'm not trying to be evasive - you are asking questions that you're paying a good teacher to answer very quickly and efficiently. Her direction will make SO much more sense than what we could tell you.

Good luck!

Carlos

[sanmenxia]

At the beginning some people put marks on the neck as a rough guide to show where to put their fingers, although to play in tune you need to use your ears to know the correct place. Without rosin you won't be able to make a sound as it provides friction, you just rub a bit on from to time, depending on how much you play.

[YouLanFengChune]

Marking on the Erhu, though some international meastroes do it, its still frowned upon. In a seminar with former Dean of Chinese Music, Central Conservatory, Liu Chang Fu, he said
"Erhu notes are to be listened to, not seen. AND thats how i teach u all to, so make sure u teach that to UR studets..."

[calden]

My Chinese friend I play music with has used a permanent marker and put a tiny dot on the STRING, not the neck, at the octave position. He figures that a) his main instrument is dizi and, b) his other main instrument is yangqing, so c) he should not have to worry too much about keeping practice with erhu and is thus willing to cheat a little. Very pragmatic man.

I basically agree with Yinhao - I won't do it, because one day I'll be able to jump up and grab, with my first finger, that octave note, each and every time. Necessary in Erquan and Liangxiao among others. I'm not bad now, but I'll never totally get there if I have a mark guiding me.

Having said that, though, my first teacher used white-out and placed tiny dots on the neck for the third finger in first position, just to help me get started. He said that when I could get that note solid each time without using the mark, as SOON as I could do it, to remove it.

Carlos

[ling]

Wow, great tips! It has been 4 lessons and I'm still having trouble using my left hand on the neck, properly. When I watch others play, they're able to hold their first 3 fingers in the same position while my ones scrunch up or go all over the place. This causes me to play notes too high or low. I'll need to practice more on doing scales...
Putting lines and dots on the neck is something I'd love to do, but I'll just force myself to 'sense' and remember the positions...But I won't give up!

[davidmdahl]

Just be patient with yourself, Ling. Be happy and draw encouragement with each small accomplishment. Growth may seem slow while you are struggling at the moment, but you will see amazing things happen over time. The exercises and tunes that were once impossible become easy. Every step of the way can be fun. Fortunately we don't have to wait until we are virtuosos to enjoy our instruments and music.

It is especially important at the beginning to learn the basics well. Everything becomes so much easier when you don't have to fight with bad habits.

Best wishes,

David

[ling]

I can't wait til the day I can play without worrying "Is my left hand in the right position" or "Is my right wrist moving in a out like it should?"
And you're right, it's fun to just discover by myself the different sounds that can be made.

[carol]

Here is my answer:

1. I saw a concert of Karen Han last year and decided to learn the erhu. Actually, this is the last Chinese string instrument I pick up. I'm more professional in guzheng, intermediate in guqin, and kind of know where the scales are on pipa and yangqin.

2-5,. I'm still a beginner with only a few weeks experience on my new erhu. I'm more confident with where the scales are. My major problem now is it's hard to make the tone nice when my fingers are placed on the strings. It doesn't sound as nice as D A notes.
Any body have tips on this?

6. I like slower song on erhu. It's a very expressive instrument.

[maaltan]

carol said:

2-5,. I'm still a beginner with only a few weeks experience on my new erhu. I'm more confident with where the scales are. My major problem now is it's hard to make the tone nice when my fingers are placed on the strings. It doesn't sound as nice as D A notes.
Any body have tips on this?

try a little more or less pressure with your left hand. Also I have noticed the required bow-to-string pressure/speed changes slightly depending on what note you are playing. Its subtle and possibly imaginary.

I find that the stopped notes sound much cleaner than the open strings once you learn the feel for the pressures.

Of course the universal answer to all "learning to play" questions. Practice. Do the D scale a blue billion times. Then once you can do that without thinking. Do the following (btw `1 etc is an octave up since that dot is a pain to type on here)

1 3 2 4 | 3 5 4 6 | 5 7 6 `2 |`1 - - - |
`1 6 7 5 | 6 4 5 3 | 4 2 3 1 | 2 3 1 - |

I think that is right... You can do this in 2 ways. In the center around the 5s and 6s you can play it using the 4th finger position for the 5 and only change strings once. This helps with fingering positions and gave me a feel for the 2 5's you can reach from the first position. They do sound different.

YOu can also play it by playing all the 5s on the outer string or inner string. This will force you to bouce back and forth between the strings alot. This is something I have worked hard on. Most songs have slurs between notes played on different strings. its really hard to get a smooth transition when bouncing to other string without stopping the bow.

Technically im only about a month or two into learning myself. But from my teaching experience (in other fields), I have found that student to student interaction can more effective than teacher/student interactions at time. In otherwords, take my advice as you will.

[davidmdahl]

carol said:

2-5,. I'm still a beginner with only a few weeks experience on my new erhu. I'm more confident with where the scales are. My major problem now is it's hard to make the tone nice when my fingers are placed on the strings. It doesn't sound as nice as D A notes.
Any body have tips on this?

As maaltan wrote, more finger pressure on the strings might do it. It is also possible something is out-of-adjustment, particularly the qianjin. This is the wrapping around the strings and neck to form one of the end-points of the sounding part of the strings. The rule I have heard is that distance between the strings and neck at the qianpu should be the thickness of your thumb. Of course, thumbs come in different sizes, so this may not be correct in all situations. If the pitch changes more than a very little bit when you bow between up and down, the qianjin is probably too loose.

If possible, get your erhu checked out by someone who plays.

Best wishes,

David

[carol]

Thanks David and Maaltan. I'll try these tips.
My uncle is visiting China for two month, so I'll have to play erhu around without a teacher for a while.

[jeongmee]

1. I wanted to learn the erhu because I thought it had such a lovely sound especially on the slower songs and I thought it seemed to be not all that hard to play or learn.
2. Problems? I had many of them including the bow being in between the strings but thankfully I found this forum which helped trememdously
3. a while to finally get a good sound since my rosin wasn't very good. It had some kind
of film over it.
4. I don't exactly know.
5. thats never actually happened to me but i'm betting it could happen if you press hard enough
6. I tend to lean more towards the slower, pleasant and sometimes sadder songs.
7. Make sure that you know your fingering so its not off key. and that the bowing is smooth.
8. I don't know

4.