Wolf tone on inner string

[ychent]

Hi everyone,

I am a novice to erhu. I became interested in it out of blue about nearly a year ago, bought a cheap erhu on ebay at ~$140 (wish I had known about this website back then), and had been learning pretty much on my own since because I have no access (nor time) to instructions. It's been a grueling experience; I didn't even know how to put on rosin first! I had to have a friend who plays violin to show me how. Now I am slowly making some music; still working on the fundamentals though (just cannot get changing between strings to sound gap-less).

It's been a struggle to make it sound good, since I cannot tell if it's me or the instrument that's sucking. After much research and trials and error, I've changed the felts a dozen times (made a full circle and back to the sponge cake), changed the bridge twice, graphite the bridge, moved the bridge to different locations on the python skin, changed the rosin (currently staying with RDM).... while it's starting to sound somewhat better (evident by neighbors not calling cops), I am still bothered by the problem that the two strings do not sound even. The outer string is (overly) bright, and the inner string has a lot of wolf tone, especially on first position. When I bow it, it either doesn't grab well and produces an aweful overtone, or it really grabs it and makes a harsh note with a lot of wolf tone. It actually sounds quite mellow from second position and beyond, but the first position just sounds.... well, atrocious.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Is there a way to balance out the two strings better--a lot less wolf-tone on inner string, and maybe mellow out the outer string too? While allowing good volume and clarity on high octaves? I've also read that the erhu will mature after a while to a more balanced and mellow sound. I've been playing ~1 hr/day for ~10 months; is it going to change any further? Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

[dsouthwood]

I still get wolf tones mainly at the first position on the inner string, although they have gotten better. I have tried many different bridges, and ended going back to the ebony one; I bought new strings (Fang Fang solo), and there is much less difference between the sounds of the two stings; I am using Andrea rosin (Paganini for my erhu and David for my zhonghu). The wolf tones are less noticeable now, probably partly because of the new accessories and partly (I like to think) because I am getting better at bowing. I have read that this is a frequent problem with cellos. I am looking forward to reading what others have done about this.

[calden]

ychent:

Welcome to the forum. Dive in, use the search feature, and you'll learn more about the erhu than you ever thought possible. You'll hear erhu music on the phone. You'll see erhus flying in the air. You'll dream about erhus. You.... oh, never mind, you're already there.

From what you've described, I would try new strings. All the elements that you've tinkered with (bridge position, bridge composition, felt or foam, position of felt or foam, rosin, etc.) can contribute, but it may well be the strings. Another consideration is the construction of the erhu. Without seeing it I can't tell if there's possibly a crack in the body somewhere which could lead to an unwanted vibration. You might also try a new bow.

Now let's get to playing technique: When I first started out I was urged by my teacher to practice the bowing exercises VERRRRRY slowly and VERRRRY hard to yield maximum volume. Nice long notes lasting a minimum of 4 seconds using the full bow, every single inch of it. I distinctly remember asking him "you sure that this isn't too hard?" and him replying "Harder!"

When I had some of this under my belt I found that my notes were much clearer in tone with more of the fundamental coming through. I now play fairly hard but can play lightly, too. In fact I've been going through a new bow every year, and I hardly play every day.

I point this out because I have NEVER had a problem with any wolf tones, and I've got three erhus of varying quality. They each sound different, and I can get them to squeal, squawk, hum, and whine if I intentionally play lightly and loosely. But if I play with a good strong hand they each speak clearly with their own voice.

If you can swing it, go see a teacher for a few lessons. If there's no one near you, find someone in a nearby city and make a trip of it. If you'll let us know where you are I'm sure someone can suggest a qualified player who can point out some things.

Short of that, can you make a quick video demonstrating what the problem is? It would be helpful for us.

Good luck,
Carlos

[davidmdahl]

I agree with Carlos that new strings might be in order. You might also experiement some more with different bridges. I have also found that a loose/misadjusted qianjin (loops around the string and neck) can cause problems. It could save you a lot of time and trouble to have your erhu checked out and set up by someone knowledgable, otherwise experiementing with strings, bridge, pad, and qianjin should lead to evenual success, providing there is not something terribly wrong with the skin or wood parts.

Best wishes,

David

[dsouthwood]

Here's part of a wolf tone discussion from a cello forum:

*****

I had a Baroque cello with a pronounced wolf an octave below the usual wolf area—it was on the lowest F of the instrument, fourth finger on the C string. This note is one I used with great frequency, and I just couldn’t avoid or tame it. After trying various solutions, I took the cello to my repairperson, and while I sawed away on the low F, the repairman moved his fingers around the top of the instrument below the f-hole near my bowing hand. It was like magic when he found the right spot—the wolf just plain disappeared. Then he carefully affixed a dewolfer with putty to that exact location. While I preferred to keep it on the outside of the instrument for ease of adjustment later on, it can be placed on the inside in the same spot with a special tool. It didn’t look authentically Baroque, but it worked wonders, and it didn’t substantially change the rest of the cello’s sound. The WolfResonator comes in three specific ranges (D to E, E flat to F, E to F#) and costs about $52.

And, as I learned from Anner Bylsma some years ago, you can lessen the severity of a wolf tone by placing an available left-hand finger on another string at the pitch of the wolf or an octave of it.

*****

So over the weekend I'll experiment with pressure on different spots on the skin. I'll let you all know what I discover.

[ychent]

Thanks to everyone for their input so far! I didn't realize that cello also has problem with wolf tone, and that there are putties designed to fix it. I wish I can find an erhu shop to have them perform the same magic, but I didn't find any Chinese instrument shops in my area. I have ordered some new strings, a bow and bridges online from eason; once they complete their trip across the ocean, hopefully this problem will be solved.

In the end, I know what I really need is instructions from someone who knows what they're doing. I live in Silver Spring, MD, close to both Washington DC and Rockville, MD; does anyone know any instructors in these areas?

(I would make an video to show everyone the problem--and my poor playing--but I don't have camcorder.)

[calden]

ychent:

If you're near DC there's got to be a ton of resources for you. A simple google search turned up this:

Chinese Cultural Services Center
416 Hungerford Dr # 204
Rockville, MD 20850
[phone]

Call them and they ought to be able to direct you to someone. You might have to follow up with a bunch of phone calls and persist a bit but I'm sure that's a good start!

Wolf tones are a potential in every instrument. Guitars have an intentional wolf tone at around a G# or A note. It strengthens the bass response. There are a few guitars which don't have this - I personally hate it as an acoustic guitarist, preferring a dry and balanced sound.

An office supply product, blu-tak, a temporary adhesive putty, can be used to dampen a wolf tone, but that's only on an instrument where the top does the vibrational sound production. On an erhu that would be the snakeskin head, and I suppose you could find a spot that if dampened would help - that's what the foam/felt usually does. I thus don't think any modification of the body of the erhu would do anything (but I could be wrong) unless it's separating at the seams.

Yup - go to someone and they will set you straight. Or just listen to us speculate, which we love to do. Let us know how you do.

Carlos

[song]

So there you are Yin Teng. There is not a lot more I could add to what Carlos, Dennis and David have said. You can try to cut a 6mm cube from a piece of eraser and place it between the strings below the felt dampener. That would reduce some noise and hopefully the wolf tone as well.

I find that wolf tone particularly exists in erhus with mechanical tuning pegs. The strings tend to get twisted 1 or 2 rounds when they come straight from the factory. I had to do a lot of restringing with those.

You could have let me know about your wolf tone problems when you made your purchases and I would have sent you a piece of felt and rubber to try.

Thanks,
Sung Wah

[damien]

Your right Sung, When i recieved my ErHu it had come with the strings unattached. As a complete beginner i had to attach them and did so, but with the strings overlapped which caused a wolf sound on the A string, that was the string that was overlapped.

[dsouthwood]

I just erased the wolf tone on my erhu with Sung Wah's trick. I used a short length of a refill for a retractable eraser (Pentel Clic Eraser) that I have. The wolf tone on my erhu disappeared completely, and the wolf tone on my zhonghu was quieted to a great degree. The zhonghu is pretty new and isn't broken in yet, so I would not expect complete quiet from that yet. Your mileage may vary.

Here is a discussion of the physics of wolf tones:

www.cello.org/cnc/tim49.htm

In searching various forums for information about this problem, I frequently ran across the statement, "All good cellos have wolf tones." Apparently, the better your instrument is, the more likely it will have a wolf tone. There was one discussion of a Stadivarius cello with a terrible wolf tone. (Maybe we should wear our wolf tones as a badge of honor.) One person mentioned that tuning down to a "Baroque" tuning (A=415 instead of 440) will also get rid of the problem.

I think the bottom line is that a good instrument will be finicky, but you can adjust it to bring out the optimum sound, whereas a cheap one will sound pretty much the same no matter what you do. I'd rather have a temperamental instrument than a dull one any day.

[calden]

Interesting discussion about wolftones in guitars, if anyone's interested:

groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/browse_thread/thread/61ccebb35a69bc41/3f9a0769f0848021?lnk=st&q=wolftone+guitar&rnum=1#3f9a0769f0848021

Carlos

[dsouthwood]

After playing for a while with the piece of eraser between the strings below the bridge, I wasn't sure I really liked the sound. It seemed to flatten the tone (timbre, not pitch). I ended up taking the eraser off to get the full sound back.

Then I started experimenting with the poster putty. I stuck a ball of it about the size of a large pea at various places on the skin. The spot that gave the best results for me was parallel with the bridge and midway between the bridge and the edge of the resonator on the side away from my body. The sound is now a little quieter, but much smoother. Not only is the wolf tone gone, but also the squeak on the high G on the outer string when I play the G scale (the eraser trick didn't get rid of that).

I would very much like to hear about others' experiences with this.

[ychent]

I got a new some new strings (XingHai) and bridges from Song, and the problem has improved (although not completely resolved). The outer string sounds much sweeter, and the inner string still has a little bit of wolf tone on 2, 3 and 5, although less noticable if I press hard and stroke hard (as calden suggested). I also have been playing with the eraser idea, but I am not sure if I am getting any noticeable differences. I have not have the chance to try putty yet.

Now what bothers me is that the inner string still sounds kinda rough, quite out of character with the outer string. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make the inner string sound more mellow?

[calden]

ychent:

That inner string ought to mellow out with playing and when it gets some rosin into it. Also keep playing hard - it will help "break in" the string. Also since you've only been playing solo you don't really know the full volume range of the instrument. It's my guess that you're playing way in the low volume range and lots of little strange tones can come out with a new player at low volume. I'm now teaching someone and when I exhort her to play REALLY HARD and KEEP THE BOW MOVING her tone improves immediately and the little barks and squeaks and whistles go away. Yet the volume doesn't change that much - it's just that she's shy about digging in and THINKS she is playing very loud if she digs in. It's very easy as a beginner to overestimate how much pressure you're playing with, and inadequate pressure almost always yields a thin tone and noises.

So keep trying to play with decisive weight and movement, fully connecting with the string at the first "bite" of the bow. I really think half your problem is technique.

A thought occured to me about using putty blobs - clay, blu-tak, putty or whatever will have some oil or liquid in it to keep it from drying out. Whatever it is might stain or otherwise affect the snakeskin, so I'd be reluctant to put anything on it. Wouldn't it be sad if the oil used started to deteriorate the skin? Wake up one day and you've got a hole. Oh No! I'd first try different sizes and shapes of felt or rubber under the strings behind the bridge.

Carlos

[dsouthwood]

The more I experiment with this and the more I think about it, the more I agree with Carlos. Of all possible solutions, attaching something to the skin is probably the worst. Also, I could see that just about anything I did to either the skin or the strings modified the sound of the erhu to some extent. Unfortunately, it isn't like the filters in your audio equipment than can erase selected frequencies; I seemed to be losing things across the spectrum, and some of the lost frequencies may well be the ones that make an erhu sound like an erhu is supposed to sound.

I followed Carlos's advice and concentrated on bowing harder. I could definitely hear the difference. One of my problems has always been that I am too tentative, especially when I'm learning something new. Now, as I work on my bowing technique, I look forward to becoming an old bow-hard.

So I guess I just learned what millions of novice musicians have learned over the centuries: There is no magic substitute for technique.

Thanks to all who participated in the lesson.

Dennis

[ckoo55]

Hi, is this a common problem with lower priced Erhu? My Erhu's inner D string is also making this vibrating sound. I think this is what's called a wolf-tone, right? please correct me if I'm wrong.
It is especially bad when bowed open string. I tried changing to the darker color bridge which came with the Erhu and changing and moving the pad below the bridge, both didn't make the irritating sound go away. I'm going to buy a new bow and more bridges to see if that will help.
My Erhu has this other problem, when bowing D open, the pull and push stroke produce slightly different pitch which my ears can detect, my KORG chromatic tuner also confirmed this problem. The A string is however bright and clear, it is only the D that's bad. I'm thinking I've bought a lemon.

[jetz320]

bridges dont do much. bow, can make a difference, but most importantly. i think you should change the strings.

[song]

you might want to try retying your qianjing to resolve the push pull different pitch problem.

perhaps you can take some shots of your erhu at the qianjing area, the bow, the bridge area and post it here. we might be able to spot a thing or 2 that is not quite right.

[ckoo55]

Thanks for your reply, I posted my last message after I put in new strings.
My qianjing is the original which came with the Erhu, I did move it so that the length between the resonator and qianjing is the same as elbow to where pinky finger joined the palm. My bow also came with the Erhu, so it is 6 weeks old. I've read here that they should last a year or so, but I've also read that bow that comes with Erhu is usually not too good, that's why I'm considering getting new bows.

[song]

everything looks fine actually. the dampener looks a little thin from the picture. it should not be too thin such that it slides in and out easily and not too thick to the extent that you need to remove the bridge to put in the dampener.

the wolf tone exists after u changed new strings or even before? new strings might need some time to season. u can do a quick seasoning by doing the 'reverse bowing'.

sw

[jetz320]

i agree with song. the damper, should be a little thicker, past the height of the strings. that helps to prevent the wolf tone.

[ckoo55]

Thanks for the tip. I cut 25% off the damper that came with my Erhu. I was desparately trying to correct the sound and thought I would try reducing the damper thinkness. Your description gives me a good idea of how thick the dampener should be. I have always had wolf tone with this Erhu, it did worsen after changing the string. The Erhu doesn't seem to sound as bad as it was 2 days ago, so I think you are right about new string needing time to season.

[calden]

I'd also try and make sure the damper is up against the bridge more. Big difference in stridency of tone and volume, and may also affect stray wolf tones. What you want to be doing is to control the vibrating surface of the skin head. Even small, subtle changes of where the damper is, how big it is, and how much pressure it exerts can make a beneficial change. Not a lot of area on this small head, so little changes are magnified.

About the pitch change on pull or push bow strokes: I was told by two different teachers that it's in the bowing technique and is something to strive to correct. Indeed, after really working at it I found that my pull strokes were more natural, stronger, and with a more pronounced initial grab of the string, as compared to the push strokes. If you video yourself playing a few bars, and analyze it, I think you'll clearly see a difference in your push and pull strokes. I've heard that proper qinjin tying can fix this, but I have seen that in my own learning it's a matter of enough strength, especially the attack, on the push stroke (which seems to be the FLATTER pitch.)

Carlos

[edcat7]

I normally use the modestly priced Huqiu brand of strings and didn't notice wolf tones on these. When these were out of stock I changed to Shanghai Dunhuang Mudan strings. I immediately noticed that the inner string was much thicker than the Huqiu's and I too get wolf tones on '6'.

So try changing strings to Huqiu.

Ed