Pipa Repair Project - Luthier's Questions

[wayneny]

Hi, my name is wayne, from upstate NY, USA. In my spare time I build mandolins and guitars.

A friend of our family asked me if I could revive her sadly broken pipa, which was brought to North America from China by her grandfather a generation ago. Professional luthiers turned down the job, and at last she was ready to throw out the pipa!

I accepted the challenge, as the major problem was a broken headstock joint, which I have since re-built. This repair alone will make the pipa playable again. The remaining work will be replacing frets, repairing fissures in the soundboard, backboard, and a restoringa split tuning peg. Then the setup.

Now my question.

In allowing the pipa to acclimate to the dryness of my shop (30% rh), I suspect the wood became brittle. This caused me to crack the soundboard when I attempted to loosen it from the sides with gently heating.

Presently, I'm torn between bonding the new cracks (which are not aligned with the grain) OR finding new wood to re-build the soundboard.

1-Repairing the existing cracks will not make them disappear, however I expect the pipa to be fully playable and still beautiful.

2-Replacing the soundboard seems more logical, however I can't identify the wood, or a supplier.

I would be most grateful for any advice or guidance.

Thanks,
Wayne

[Charlie Huang]

The wood used for the top board is Chinese paulownia. I don't know if you can source it.

I would like to see some pictures as I have an interest in organology, particularly Chinese instruments and their construction and restoration.

Good luck with the restoration!

[wayneny]

Thanks, Charlie.

Before logging-in, I in fact found a source of "hobbyist" quantities of paulownia. I got one very lucky lead, after extensive searches for pipa + soundboards+ Chinese + lute + etc. etc.. Your confirmation is very reassuring.

My photo blog link:
wayne-ny.blogspot.com/2008/01/all-that-remained-of-frets.html

[Charlie Huang]

Hang on. Are you talking about the back board that is cracked, not the top board (going by pics and descriptions you've posted on the instrument)? The back board can be made of any hardwood material as long as it is hard and dense. Typical woods used are rosewood, ebony, zitan (purple sandlewood), etc. You have to be careful with the back board as the amount of wood hollowed out will depend on the wood and overall construction of the instrument. It is the most difficult parts to get right IMO. One would hollow out a bit, put the topboard on temporarily, string a string on it then test it before taking it apart and hollowing out a bit more and this is repeated until the desired sound is achieved. You don't have to do this if you've been making pipas all your life of course. Also, best you buy a pipa CD and listen to the music to know what sound you are aiming for. But, this maybe too advanced and time consuming (with a big margin for error) so sealing the backboard cracks maybe a safer option.

If it is the top board you're on about, then it is a much simpler affair. Simply cut to shape and thickness and Bob's you're uncle. The top board is not waxed or varnished and should remain 'plain' or 'raw'.

Also, it is better to make the broken tuning peg from scratch than to stick it back together again (it would be too weak IMO).

And I'd like to see the insides as I've never seen that part of a pipa before.

[wayneny]

Charlie

"Soundboard" should read "backboard."

A finish is not planned, as this gives this family of instrumends their signature tone. A shipment of clear paulownia is on the way.

Upon opening the soundbox, I observed a kind of "sound post" which connects the soundboard to the back. This square piece probably adds stability to the soundboard as well.

[wayneny]

Check out the recent progress.

wayne-ny.blogspot.com/2008/01/pipa-reconstruction-2-rebuilding.html

[wayneny]

wayne-ny.blogspot.com/2008/01/pipa-reconstruction-2-rebuilding.html

...That's it for the headstock. Now, on to replacing the soundboard.

[fairlute]

wayneny said:

Hi, my name is wayne, from upstate NY, USA. In my spare time I build mandolins and guitars.

A friend of our family asked me if I could revive her sadly broken pipa, which was brought to North America from China by her grandfather a generation ago.
Professional luthiers turned down the job, and at last she was ready to throw out the pipa!

I accepted the challenge, as the major problem was a broken headstock joint,
which I have since re-built. This repair alone will make the pipa playable again. The remaining work will be replacing frets, repairing fissures in the soundboard, backboard, and a restoringa split tuning peg. Then the setup.

Hello my name is Anthony
I have a similar question. I acquired a 60 year old Pipa,


There is the maker's name, I think:

but it seems to have two problems, a crack in the soundboard,


and the Frets are a little worn.


In France I can find no one able to repair Pipas. I will have to try to do it myself.
Is it simple removing the soundboard?

How do you go about repairing frets, there are the top ones that have a rounded edge in buffalo horn, or similar. Can you get replacements? Can you get replacement parts.

I have seen that you can get strings from Canada
from www.yadongweb.com/
You can also get pure silk strings.
That is what I would like to use if I can repair this instrument.
Have any of you heard a Pipa with silk strings?

I have my Renaissance and Baroque lutes with pure gut, and I don't want to damage my fingers with metal. Also I would be looking for an old sound type.
I would be grateful for any ideas.

[calden]

Anthony:

Any good guitar repair person ought to be able to fix that soundboard crack. They might not even have to take the top off. The fret wear doesn't look too bad at all. In fact this instrument looks to be in decent condition.

Carlos

[fairlute]

calden said:

Anthony:

Any good guitar repair person ought to be able to fix that soundboard crack. They might not even have to take the top off. The fret wear doesn't look too bad at all. In fact this instrument looks to be in decent condition.

Carlos

Hello Carlos
Thanks for your reply. I am more bothered about the wear on the frets than the crack. I suppose that could even be filled with some artificial wood resin, although I hesitate to do so.
However, for the frets, I would suppose ideally the buffalo horn should not show any groove, and this does. Again, I wonder whether the wear could be filled with some very hard "dental' resin type material (preferably not white).

I have tried tuning up with nylon strings to check the Pipa out, and particularly on the top string there is a rattle, as though this string is hitting against the frets.

Unfortunately, I can find no close photo of how a Pipa's strings should be tied, and I wonder whether the bridge might not be a little low. I can see no way of adjusting the bridge which seems to be glued to the soundboard.

I could add a thicker piece of bone to raise it slightly; but for all I know, perhaps the Pipa strings always tend to buzz against the frets.

I don't think this Pipa ever had metal strings, as it is at least 60 years old.
I would prefer silk, and I found the address of a man who does make silk strings for the Pipa, but he only replied once to my mail. I think when he saw that I was not a professional player he lost interest.

Have any of you heard a Pipa with silk strings?
There is an excellent article, here
"http://www.silkqin.com/03qobj/silk.htm#f14"
on the Quin and the interest of using silk strings.
That is where I found the silk string maker, Wong Shu-Chee's email.
I would be greateful for any ideas.
Regards
Anthony

[Charlie Huang]

The soundboard requires no further work IMO and I don't think it will affect the sound much if at all. Do not touch the bridge. One reason why the strings rattle is either because you have stung it wrong or you strung it with not enough tension. Looking at your pics, you tied it wrong but also it maybe because of the strings (strings of different materials vibrate differently).

To tie, stick the end into the hole (you are looking at the face of the pipa held vertically). Bring the end to the right, up and under the incoming string then down again (you're essentially looping it). Then, tuck the end through the right side of the outcoming part if the string from the hole and down tight to secure it.

It is indeed an old instrument looking at the peg holder.

Yes, Mr Wong makes silk strings for a variety of Chinese instruments. I would be patient with him. Eitherway, get some metal-nylon ones for a test at least (the stringing is much easier).

For the frets on the neck, it seems like it is wood inlaid with ox horn which sould be a simple enough job for the luthier. You can use bone if ox horn is not around.

[fairlute]

Thank you for your helpful replies. However, although I probably have tied the strings wrongly, the rattle is mainly at the treble side, and this is also where one of the bamboo frets almost touches the string. I have now just realised that the bowl has warped, raising the bass side and lowering the treble side, as we can see here:

i105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/Chinese%20Pipa/PipaWarped.jpg

I suppose the correct way to repair this would be a new soundbaord. The only other way would be to raise the bridge slightly at the treble string, and lower a couple of the bamboo frets.

I would be grateful for futher ideas.
Also are there any detailed photos showing how to tie the strings?
Regards
Anthony

[fairlute]

I forgot to ask whether such older Pipas are of any better quality (or even of different quality) than modern ones, and whether they have any intrinsic value as a musical instrument. I don't want to begin "vandalizing" a decent instrument.
Regards
Anthony

[fairlute]

fairlute said:

I forgot to ask whether such older Pipas are of any better quality (or even of different quality) than modern ones, and whether they have any intrinsic value as a musical instrument. I don't want to begin "vandalizing" a decent instrument.
Regards
Anthony

Well, here I am, again, trying to answer my own question; but in fact, I had replies from two specialists.

Mr Shu Chee Wong, who is again making the silk strings for Pipa at a very reasonable price.
You can find his email here
"http://www.silkqin.com/03qobj/silk.htm#f14"

He tells me that the traditional Pipa before 1950, had only 4 xiangs (big frets on upper finger board) and 12-13 pins (thin frets on the lower fingerboard)
www.shef.ac.uk/music/staff/js/PipaPic.jpeg;
while as you know the modern Pipa has 6 Xiangs and 18 Pins.
The Pipa I recently acquired is in between the traditional one and the modern one, it has 6 Xiangs but only 18 Pin. It’s what Mr Wong calls a "reformed pipa" of 1950’s to 1960’s.

He tells me that the traditional Pipa has a very thin soundboard as it only takes the strain of silk strings. While the Modern Pipa has a thicker board to support the tension of metal strings.
He does not know whether the one I have would have a thick or a thin soundboard, but I would make a guess that it is a thin one, and that is why it has warped.

Leaving that question aside, it would seem that the lighter soundboard Pipa would be better with silk strings, and excellent for classic Pipa pieces that were originally created with such strings, but probably less good for the modern pieces that make the most of the projection of the metal strings.

This sort of question is also discussed at
"http://www.silkqin.com/03qobj/silk.htm#f14"
I would love to hear a recording of a Pipa or a Quin with silk strings, to hear the difference.

I also had a reply from Professor Jonathan Stock of the University of Sheffield UK, about the general history of the Pipa in China and its variant forms.
I will not go into all the details here, but I asked him about the nanguan (or nanyin) pipa, as I wondered whether my Pipa having a peg-box bent back might be half way between this Nanyin Pipa and the modern one.
tinyurl.com/2kdpr8
It seems they are just cousins, but the Nanyin Pipa continues to be played with silk strings, and with a plectrum, and it is still played horizontally.
tinyurl.com/34z3kf
This is the closest Pipa to the Japanese Biwa, apparently.
Regards
Anthony

[Charlie Huang]

Ah, so it is warped. You can try your quick repair method of raising this and that, but note that it will not be the end of all problems (imo, it is almost unplayable). The more proper way would be to take it to a professional pipa maker who would open it up, soak the boards in water then place them between boards to straighten them then dried before putting it back together again. This will take over a year of course. Personally, I would not touch such an old instrument as it very easy to mess it up big time if you do not know what you're doing.

[wayneny]

Hi Guys, I'm back.

My Blog update contains a step-by-step fret block re-creation.

wayne-ny.blogspot.com/

[wayneny]

calden said:

Anthony:

Any good guitar repair person ought to be able to fix that soundboard crack. They might not even have to take the top off. The fret wear doesn't look too bad at all. In fact this instrument looks to be in decent condition.

Carlos

If you're going to reconstruct the top, the key is Pawlonia wood-unfinished. There is a grower in GA, usa.

I'm finding, if the crack extends into the body (as with my project) you may have to cut out the soundboard, and fix the hardwood and softwoods separately.

[wayneny]

fairlute said:

Thank you for your helpful replies. However, although I probably have tied the strings wrongly, the rattle is mainly at the treble side, and this is also where one of the bamboo frets almost touches the string. I have now just realised that the bowl has warped, raising the bass side and lowering the treble side, as we can see here:

i105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/Chinese%20Pipa/PipaWarped.jpg

I suppose the correct way to repair this would be a new soundbaord. The only other way would be to raise the bridge slightly at the treble string, and lower a couple of the bamboo frets.

I would be grateful for futher ideas.
Also are there any detailed photos showing how to tie the strings?
Regards
Anthony

Fairlute, see my blog for pics of the pawlonia. It appears to be readily accessible. If you're in the states, I can consider doing the job for you.

[fairlute]

wayneny said:

Fairlute, see my blog for pics of the pawlonia. It appears to be readily accessible. If you're in the states, I can consider doing the job for you.

Unfortunately (from this point of view), I am in Paris.
However, I would very much appreciate your advice. I think the crack is much less of a problem than the warping.
Is there any way of correcting this other than steaming the instrument?

The pipa seems to be a light one which apparently would make it excellent for silk strings. Mr Wong sent me several recordings of instruments with an authentic silk sound, and I am very impressed.

My own European lutes are light ones with gut strings, and I see a similarity in approach in this light, fast but well textured gut sound, and the light silk instrument sound. There is a major difference, however, gut has very little sustain, silk possibly has more sustain than metal.
Regards
Anthony

[wayneny]

Blog Update on a crack repair, with inside pictures.
wayne-ny.blogspot.com/