Winson Liao xiao

[dizixiao]

Hello, 

I have an interest in a multi-harmonic wood xiao by Winson Liao. However, they are very expensive at least $1000. Does anyone have Winson Liao multi-harmonic xiao and Huang Chao Qing or Dong Xue Hua xiao. I have a Huang Chao Qing nanxiao. I wonder if it is justify to spend $1000 for a Winson Liao xiao. How much better a Winson Liao multi-harmonic xiao compare to Huang Chao Qing or Dong Xue Hua xiao? 

[davidmdahl]

Is a $1000 + xiao worth the money? It depends, mostly on the player. If the xiao will mostly sit on a shelf, then a cheaper xiao will do as well. If the xiao will get played a lot with pleasure over the years, then I suggest the money is well-spent. I have never played a xiao by the makers you listed, so I can only go by reputation and recordings. My impression is that the DXH xiao are excellent, and I like my DXH dizis. I already have at least one xiao that is probably close to the quality of DXH, and I don't expect to need anything better. If xiao were my primary instrument, you can bet I would seriously consider a xiao by Winson.

Sometimes the choice of instruments is not so much quality as it is style. If you want to play very traditionally, then a more conventional xiao may be the better choice. There is a lot of Winson in his instruments that in some cases makes the xiao more like a shakuhachi. If that suits you, then go for it!

Best wishes,

David

[dizixiao]

Thank you for your opinion. Most of the songs I like sound better with dizi. Only two songs I like Trail of Angel and Color Riot sound better with a xiao. Xiao sound softer, soothing and more mellow. Although Winson xiao does sound brighter and more vibrant than xiao from china. I actually like that. I wonder if there is a xiao or dizi that allow me to play both soothing, mellow songs and vibrant, lively song. Winson talked about playing multi-harmonic with his xiao. I'm not quite understand what he mean that is special about his xiao.

[meoweth]

What david is talking about and what you are thinking about buying from winson are 2 different things. The "xiao" is usually a thin long bamboo flute, they are very small diameter, which can be a good or bad thing depending on what your style and level of experience is. In general, small diameter tubes will make less noise than big diameter tubes.

Nearly all of Winsons xiaos are large diameter, the size of a shakuhachi, as thats what most of his work is somewhat based on. The 'multi-harmonic' involves precise blowing, preferrably using the puffed cheek technique which is very difficult and unusual. The only reason why winsons are better is because you can blow very loudly and get multi harmonics out of it. This is nothing unique to winson, all good jinashi shakuhachi that have expert tuned bores will yield multi harmonics. He's the only guy that does it in 8 holes though.

That being said, if its your first xiao purchase, just get a cheaper $100-$200 one, its not a matter of money, its a matter of if will be able to play the larger diameter ones or not.

[meoweth]

I noticed that you already started playing dizi, the thin diameter xiao would be your best bet. the large diameter wooden xiao that winson makes will be extremely difficult for you to play. I wouldnt jump from a dizi straight into winsons right away. If you want to get a good xiao, look a what david has to say, or better yet, buy a xiao from taobao (using google translate) and you'll be able to pick up a sick xiao for around $50-$100 (but you'd need to use a taobao agent site, which is a bit complex).

Try that out and once you get confident at it, you can get a winson, but i would say, you should consider a wooden xiao, but with the U-mouthpiece and tang-mouthpiece. After time, you'll see that the more relaxed embroushure is much better when using the tang. But again, its not how much your xiao is worth, its how good you can play it, and theres no better teacher than winson himself.

[dizixiao]

Thank you. I do have a good long and small diameter xiao from carrot music. I also have a nanxiao from a taiwanese maker Huang Chao Qing. The nanxiao do have larger diameter. I like the nanxiao more than the one from china. The nanxiao is more similar to what winson make. I have a U-mouthpiece already so I would definitely get a tang-mouthpiece. I do notice that his puff cheek technique is difficult. What I'm not clear is with a winson xiao can I play the whole song in a higher harmonic so it sound similar to a dizi? I think this will be very tire. Most of the songs I like sound better in dizi because it sound better in higher harmonic. I think the dizi is about 1 octave higher than the xiao.

[meoweth]

the puff cheek technique is more than difficult, you actually need to take lessons from him, as theres very little other people around that can do it. Its actually a super relaxed embrochure where you can expand the volume of your cheek cavity, thus the puffing. In addition, you need to learn diagonal/sideways jaw movement which allows smoother transitions. This is not stuff you can learn to do on your own... Whether or not its superior to the traditional embrochure, remains up for debate as youll notice winson has his own style, which is not the same as other people.

You mean does winsons xiaos sound better in the higher octaves? Yeah, the only reason why his stuff is good because the notes sound alot better than flutes that cost 10x less, this is due to better bore tuning, and it applies to the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd octave. You can push more breath into each note and it doesnt just crap out, that's where all the magical "harmonics" comes out, it requires good technique though because if you cant focus the air correctly, there is no point in getting a higher quality flute.

You can get a DG tube which is the standard key, with both a U-mouth and tang-mouthpiece, this is what alot of first-timers do when buying from winson. This'll probably run a bit over a thousand. But, I did hear a rumor from him saying he was going to offer cheaper beginner xiao starting at $350, not sure if he is doing that or not.

[dizixiao]

Thank you for the information. I'm here in the US so taking lesson from him could be a problem. I don't want to buy his xiao then can't play it to its maximum potential. The last time maybe 2 years ago I emailed Winson he gave me the price of $600 for G bamboo xiao, $800 for F bamboo, $1000 for rosewood and $1200 for sandalwood. I don't think he makes xiao for $350. If I buy Winson xiao it would be best quality and make from rosewood burl or any other special wood and have master carver carve on it. I have enough xiao and dizi already and they are good quality. Winson xiao has to be special and I can play it or else no point in getting more xiao. I probably won't get it for another 2 years or might not get it at all. I need to hunt for the wood and need to determine if I can learn to play it. I don't want it to look pretty on the collection shelf.

[dizixiao]

meoweth,

How long is Winson DG xiao?

[meoweth]

dizixiao, the length of a DG xiao is the same length (and diameter)2 as a typical 1.8' shakuhachi which is 55cm.

He told me he plans to sell $350 ones last time I saw him. I would check with him if he is still doing that.
You have a choice really between wood or bamboo. With bamboo being the more natural, husky sounding, but more expensive than wood, which is better balanced, easier to make.
If going with wood, go with the cheapest wood, there is no difference between the wood types, as its all about his bore construction, dont waste money on the better woods.
I'd also consider the hi-temp, hi-pressure, bamboo material he uses, it's the preferred choice for entry-level Liao instruments.

You are totally right, the bottleneck will being able to play correctly, as its really hard to learn all by yourself. I've gotten maybe a few weeks of lessons with him over the course of a couple years and thats all you need really.
If you get a tang mouthpiece, then you'll at least be able to learn from shakuhachi teachers which are quite numerous in the US.

Here's a video of me practicing tang xiao:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX7FsoPV37M

[dizixiao]

Thank you for the information. You play well. I saw a Xie Bing root end xiao G key for 61 cm. I'm not sure how short they can go. Like what you wrote 55 cm is probably the shortest they go for a G key. I think the F key is about 63 cm. I got a UV mouthpiece bamboo root end xiao from master Huang Chao Qing in Taiwan from redmusicshop already. My next xiao would be a Tang mouthpiece from Winson with hi-temp and hi-pressure. I saw a video of Winson testing all mouthpiece. I like the sound of the Tang mouthpiece better.

[phoenixiao]

Adding onto an old topic but might be relevant.

When getting my Tang Xiao from Master Liao, he warned that it can be challenging for long time dizi or Northern Xiao players to switch over. The reason is that the use of more force/tension has become a habit. I've only learnt the U embouchure for a year so it was worth expanding my options.

The Tang Xiao takes getting used to as the embouchure is more relaxed, which is actually a good thing. High notes are actually easier to reach with minor shift of the lips. And perhaps because of the larger bore and thicker walls of the bamboo, breathing discipline is more important, i.e., abdominal breath. The plus points of Tang embouchure is that now I've access to the shakuhachi playing styles which can't be done on U/V style.

Problem I'm facing now is I've temporarily "lost" my embouchure for the U Xiao 

[meoweth]

Same here the u Xiao from winson is difficult for me to play after getting used to tang