|
|
Post by guzhenglover on Oct 24, 2007 10:06:35 GMT
Can I please have your advice people on the kind of recording pen (I think that's what they are called?) that can make quality recordings of both the human voice (i.e. when the teacher talks about guqin) and the qin? I don't care if it's a mp3 recorder or not, just one that's compact and makes good and clear recordings. In China they told me that a good one with reasonable memory size costs somewhere between 800 and 1000 rmb. Now back in Singapore, people tell me that I can get a really good recording pen for under $500SGD (around 2500 rmb). I'd also use the equipment for outdoor/indoor recordings as I do field work and/or interviews etc.
I guess I'd need to know some specifics such as the model, the make, the price range, the functions and other things to look for (not that I care for many elaborate functions; I just want quality).
|
|
|
|
Post by calden on Oct 24, 2007 13:45:28 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 24, 2007 14:18:19 GMT
A small fortune those things costs!
|
|
|
|
Post by calden on Oct 24, 2007 14:47:05 GMT
Charlie;
Yes, they are not cheap. However, the sound quality of these little recording units is nothing short of amazing. If one records in WAV format, the file is respectable enought to import into a studio recording program and mixed with other tracks for CD. For field recording they are unbeatable. I would have died for one when I was in China 6 years ago recording street music with my minidisc recorder.
Carlos
|
|
|
|
Post by charliecharlieecho on Oct 24, 2007 15:24:25 GMT
For once the UK prices are very close to the US prices. Very odd - what usually happens is that the journey across the Atlantic leaves the numbers the same and just changes the currency symbol.
|
|
|
|
Post by song on Oct 24, 2007 15:51:26 GMT
This is quite a good recorder as well. I'm using it currently to record my sample files. The sound quality is really good. Here is a review of it: digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/11/30/m-audio-microtrack-review.htmlYou can purchase at sinamex at Plaza Singapura. This is their website: www.sinamex.comIt costs around 600-650SGD. I bought mine on ebay for 500+ SGD. But I would advise you to buy from a place where you can bring it back if the set gives you problems. The battery of my player screw up big time. Now I have to connect it to a power source or laptop to power it up, which practically makes the portable recorder un-portable. You can try city music(www.citymusic.com.sg) at Peace Centre or swee lee(http://www.sweelee.com.sg) at Bras Basah complex for other recorders. |
|
|
|
Post by davidmdahl on Oct 24, 2007 16:44:23 GMT
Earlier this year I shopped for a portable recorder. I considered both the flash memory recorders mentioned, and a minidisc recorder. In the end, I decided upon a minidisc recorder, even though it seems the technology is getting pushed aside. I can use the 1 GB minidisc media that is a fraction of the cost of a flash memory card.
My erhu teacher recently purchased a Zoom H2, and so far it appears to be an excellent choice. I also like what I see of the Edirol R-09. The M-Audio Microtrack is several years old, and a little behind the times. I don't like the fact that the battery on the Microtrack is built-in and cannot be replaced by the owner. Newer recorders take standard batteries which are cheap and easily replaced.
The built-in mics in the portable recorders are often quite good. I bought an external mic (Sony ECM-MS957) for my recorder that makes yet better recordings. My teacher bought the same mic, and I suspect that he regrets the expense.
Best wishes,
David
|
|
|
|
Post by song on Oct 24, 2007 17:26:40 GMT
Yes the irreplaceable battery is a real pain which I am experiencing at the moment.
|
|
|
|
Post by guzhenglover on Oct 25, 2007 4:15:34 GMT
Charlie! I thought you had a sound recorder? Didn't you use it to record and put stuff on Youtube?
At this moment, I am inclined to go with Zoom H2, Zoom H4 or Edirol R-09. They seem expensive but probably worth the investment, particularly because of their sound quality (like calden says) and because their batteries are (well hopefully) easy to replace (like davidmahl and song mentioned). There's a place called Sim Lim Square in Singapore so I might try it there. Or maybe somewhere on Orchard Road.
|
|
|
|
Post by calden on Oct 25, 2007 14:05:34 GMT
I can vouch for the Zoom H4. The batteries are easy to change. Two AA batteries. It comes with an AC adapter as well. I would always go with a battery-operated unit - AA batteries are worldwide, easily available, and one can get deep cycle rechargeable batteries that will last a long time and be economical. One note on that unit, though - it cannot record in mono, thus files take more space. This is hardly an issue, because using a 2 GB card, recording on the MP3 rate setting, it's still a huge amount of recording time. But it still leaves you with a stereo file that is larger than a mono file, and you'd have to use some simple program to convert it to mono. The Edirol lets you choose stereo or mono. Don't know about the H2. BUt the H4 has the two XLR mic inputs with optional phantom power, and a bunch of other trick features. AND it's cheaper than the Edirol by $100 USD. Another option entirely, which would be much cheaper yet, is a recorder that is meant primarily for voice. However, I have a musician friend who uses something like this  to record Irish sessions then go home and learn the tunes. He finds the sound quality acceptable. If one wanted a unit primarily to record tunes for learning purposes, and comments from instructors, this would be great. More information: www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=29861I'm sure the mics are not NEARLY as good as the other units we've discussed, but even with one of these you have the ability to plug into your USB port and transfer it to computer. The unit pictured above actually is part USB plug, going directly into a port, like a USB jump drive. Carlos |
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 25, 2007 14:42:06 GMT
My mic is a standard off the bog PC one. I want one that can match that of the quality of recordings. Since I really don't record that much, it is not worth me getting a high quality one at this point in time. I'd rather save up for a better qin!
|
|
|
|
Post by calden on Oct 25, 2007 15:39:05 GMT
Charlie:
Okay, I thought I knew Brit-isms, but "off the bog" means what, exactly? Dare I guess? No, wait, I haven't yet had my brekky...
Carlos
|
|
|
|
Post by charliecharlieecho on Oct 25, 2007 16:47:12 GMT
As a non-Brummie Brit I'd like to know too.
|
|
|
|
Post by davidmdahl on Oct 25, 2007 17:41:48 GMT
Bog Standard (UK) = Garden Variety (USA)
The digital voice recorders can be useful for personal recording. The ones I have checked out have a very limited dynamic range, so recordings are very flat, with little expression. The automatic sound leveling circuits amplify the soft passages and compress the loud passages so everything sounds the same. Also, the noise level (background hiss) can be quite high.
Best wishes,
David
|
|
|
|
Post by charliecharlieecho on Oct 25, 2007 19:31:19 GMT
But does "off the bog" mean "bog standard"? The bogs one gets off are lavatories/toilets, whereas, to me at least, "bog standard" means "plain/unadorned because from a marshy hence too poor to afford fancy work, area".
My interpretation of "bog standard" is linked to our using it as a coarser variation on "common or garden", which has a very similar meaning to the US "garden variety".
|
|
|
|
Post by cathr on Oct 25, 2007 20:37:20 GMT
Hi all,
I don't search for a recording unit, but for a good mic for my PC to record my (of course very high !) performance on dizi playing.
Can you please tell me what you use and if you're happy with it ?
Many thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by calden on Oct 25, 2007 23:47:57 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by song on Oct 26, 2007 2:12:42 GMT
Go Sim Lim Square only if you:
- Already know what you want to get
- Know the recommended retail price of the product
- Look and speak like a local
The same goes for those electronic shops in Orchard Road, unless its those big electronic stores like Harvey Norman or Best Electronics, but I don't they sell professional recording equipment.
|
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 26, 2007 11:24:03 GMT
What I was meant to write was 'off the peg' but I guess 'off the bog' came out instead...
Ho-hum...
I find PC mics make the qin sound metallic to the point of sounding rubbish. However, they do render wind instruments more beautifully, especially if the speakers are on and thus creating a sort of soft echo.
|
|
|
|
Post by calden on Oct 26, 2007 13:42:05 GMT
I would think that getting a good sound in recording a qin would be not easy. I've produced and recorded lots of acoustic folk music, and the hardest to get right, in the studio or on the stage, are the large multi-stringed instruments that have quiet and subtle sounds. Violins, for example, are not a huge problem - same with erhus and guitars - there is plenty of output gain to work with and to alter with equilization tinkering to make it sound right.
But a harp, hammered dulcimer (like a yang qin), or guzheng or qin is not going to sound like itself right off the bat by sticking a microphone a couple of feet in front of it as easily as some other instruments. You're going to hear more of the high plinky-plink sounds and miss the underlying warmth and guts, just as CCC says.
My point is that to record your instrument to really sound and feel like what you hear when you play will take more than just the right mic, and if that's your goal you'll have to do a bit of study in mic placement and maybe mic types, and possibly be dealing with a preamplifier and maybe an additional contact pickup. Maybe just moving the mic around to various places around your instrument - on top, underneath, an inch from the end, etc. - will change the tone for the better.
But if all you want is a basic recording of what you've done, and aren't too worried about making it sound RIGHT, then it won't matter.
Carlos
|
|
|
|
Post by guzhenglover on Oct 27, 2007 1:39:37 GMT
Go Sim Lim Square only if you: - Already know what you want to get - Know the recommended retail price of the product - Look and speak like a local The same goes for those electronic shops in Orchard Road, unless its those big electronic stores like Harvey Norman or Best Electronics, but I don't they sell professional recording equipment. In that case, could I ask you to kindly accompany me to make the purchase...? Just kidding  ! |
|
|
|
Post by guzhenglover on Oct 27, 2007 1:51:28 GMT
I would think that getting a good sound in recording a qin would be not easy. I've produced and recorded lots of acoustic folk music, and the hardest to get right, in the studio or on the stage, are the large multi-stringed instruments that have quiet and subtle sounds. Violins, for example, are not a huge problem - same with erhus and guitars - there is plenty of output gain to work with and to alter with equilization tinkering to make it sound right. But a harp, hammered dulcimer (like a yang qin), or guzheng or qin is not going to sound like itself right off the bat by sticking a microphone a couple of feet in front of it as easily as some other instruments. You're going to hear more of the high plinky-plink sounds and miss the underlying warmth and guts, just as CCC says. My point is that to record your instrument to really sound and feel like what you hear when you play will take more than just the right mic, and if that's your goal you'll have to do a bit of study in mic placement and maybe mic types, and possibly be dealing with a preamplifier and maybe an additional contact pickup. Maybe just moving the mic around to various places around your instrument - on top, underneath, an inch from the end, etc. - will change the tone for the better. But if all you want is a basic recording of what you've done, and aren't too worried about making it sound RIGHT, then it won't matter. Carlos So Carlos, are you saying that the quality of the sound recorder is still of primary importance, then followed by the mic? If that's the case, would you still say that the ZOOM H2 or H4 is still the way to go? I am inclined to think so, judging from the discussion so far. I do eventually want to make a "perfect" recording of the qin sound, one day when I am "good enough" to want myself recorded (if that day ever comes, and if there's even such a thing as perfection...sigh). For the time being, I just want a decent quality recording equipment that I'd be happy to live with at least for the next 5 to 10 years (well I think if I am gonna spend more <$300~$500SGD on this, this is a reasonable ask...or is it not...?). Apart from recording the qin, I'd also be using it to record my piano-playing as well as the fieldwork interviews etc. that I occasionally require for my work (and it sounds like th recorder would work beautifully in these situations). I am just a bit anxious about getting the equipment that suits me, since in the past I've invested in something like 6 handheld recorders and it became a bit tiring and annoying to have to try and keep up with the latest technology not to mention the dent it makes in your pocket! I know that's how it is with these things, but given my past experience acquiring handheld recorders with varying degrees of (dis)satisfaction (and having endured different salespeople showing off their sales finesse), there had been a time when I simply thought that a really basic but good handheld tape recorder was all that I needed to do the job. Funny, isn't it. Thank you all for your comment and suggestions. Pls keep these up! |
|
|
|
Post by davidmdahl on Oct 27, 2007 7:37:20 GMT
Any of the Zoom and Edirol digital recorders will make good recordings. There are others out there as well. What sort of microphone you get depends on your goals. For many people, the built-in mics will be fine, especially if you just want to record lessons. The better the microphone, the better the recording. I bet even those digital voice recorders would make better recordings with a better external mic. I suggest just getting one of the recorders based on features and budget, and see if the sound quality is good enough. I decided to go with a higher quality field microphone ($200) for my MD recorder, and I am very happy with the results. Sometimes it would be more convenient if my recorder had a built-in mic for times I did not need the highest quality possible. When recording for a CD, there can be some challenges to overcome. You need microphones that produce very low noise and make a natural sounding recording. One technique I like for stringed instruments is a transducer pickup that mounts on the instrument, mixed with a microphone or microphones set at various points. I like this pickup: www.bluestarmusic.com/product-exec/product_id/268/nm/K_K_Sound_Big_Twin_Guitar_Bass_Piano_Harp_Dulcimer Of course, multiple microphones and pickups will require a mixer. If you go this route be sure to get a good clean mixer. Best wishes, David |
|
|
|
Post by calden on Oct 27, 2007 13:20:59 GMT
So Carlos, are you saying that the quality of the sound recorder is still of primary importance, then followed by the mic? If that's the case, would you still say that the ZOOM H2 or H4 is still the way to go? I am inclined to think so, judging from the discussion so far. I do eventually want to make a "perfect" recording of the qin sound, one day when I am "good enough" to want myself recorded (if that day ever comes, and if there's even such a thing as perfection...sigh). For the time being, I just want a decent quality recording equipment that I'd be happy to live with at least for the next 5 to 10 years (well I think if I am gonna spend more <$300~$500SGD on this, this is a reasonable ask...or is it not...?). Apart from recording the qin, I'd also be using it to record my piano-playing as well as the fieldwork interviews etc. that I occasionally require for my work (and it sounds like th recorder would work beautifully in these situations). I am just a bit anxious about getting the equipment that suits me, since in the past I've invested in something like 6 handheld recorders and it became a bit tiring and annoying to have to try and keep up with the latest technology not to mention the dent it makes in your pocket! I know that's how it is with these things, but given my past experience acquiring handheld recorders with varying degrees of (dis)satisfaction (and having endured different salespeople showing off their sales finesse), there had been a time when I simply thought that a really basic but good handheld tape recorder was all that I needed to do the job. Funny, isn't it. Thank you all for your comment and suggestions. Pls keep these up! Guzhenglover: I think that any of these recorders would be fine for what you want to do. In fact, not just fine, but would excel, for now and for the next five years. You're correct about the constantly changing line-up of audio equipment. Also very frustrating is that they get better, and cheaper by 5-10% every year it seems, so there's a strong pull to wait for "just a few more months" before making a purchase. I'm looking at them for field recording. No moving parts in dusty Chinese parks! Yay! Here's my Irish band's website: www.celticnots.com Go there and listen to some of our recordings, all of which we did ourselves. We've figured out how to record and know our way around studios when it comes to acoustic instruments and folk music. With this experience, and having used $1000 microphones, I would not hesitate to use one of these units to record a track that would fit into a mix. I don't know about a fully professional recording of something like, say, a solo classical guitar, but for just about anything else these units are simply amazing, especially the mics, and they sound nothing like even reel-to-reel tape recorders of a decade ago. Much, much better mics and recording technology. But the nice thing is that you have the option to purchase an auxiliary mic. This is not to say the the built-in mics are inferior, but mics are like tools - one's a screwdriver, another is a hammer, and different manufacturers' models have different characteristics, so you might find a certain brand and model of mic that makes your instrument just scream, really capturing the essence of your playing. And that mic might turn out to be under $100! Also with these units you could even purchase an external mic preamplifier that would help define the sound. Lots of options for refinement. But more important to getting a quality recording is mic placement, room noise, room resonance, things like that. The best mic and recording equipment in the world will sound terrible if it's not used properly. This will take lots of experimenting, recording a passage then moving it away a few inches, or to the side a bit, or up or down a bit, and then re-recording and listening again. One thing you pay for in a professional recording studio is the engineer's experience - if you walk in with a violin, he/she will know which mic they have that makes a violin sound like a violin, and how far away to place it, and where to put you, and the mic, in their studio. They also will know what kind of post-recording voodoo to add in order to make it sound better: Equilization, compression, room reverb, etc. So - sorry for the long answer. It's just hit 6 am in my part of the world and I'm waiting for the coffee to brew up. Summary: I fully believe that any of these units would give you excellent sound with their built-in mics, and would be far and away above what you need, and you could grow with it. However, don't expect to just stick it in front of you and turn it on and get a studio-quality recording. Carlos Hope this long-winded diatribe helped! |
|
|
|
Post by guzhenglover on Oct 28, 2007 3:46:49 GMT
Many thanks David and Carlos for your insightful answers! I really appreciate your kind help and info. I won't have time this weekend but I'll do my purchase next weekend. Will let you know how that turns out! At this stage, I am inclined to getting a Zoom or an Edirol with the built-in mic.
Cheers - GZL
|
|
!