Chang Men Yuan Theory

[Si]

Regarding a previous post where scwguqin mentioned that he could help us with some theory - I am relearning this tune so I was wondering what are the musical theories about this one

[SCWGuqin]

First let's hear what you can work out yourself.

[SCWGuqin]

Heh, my "theory" about Changmen Yuan is "play it if you want to be a weepy princess". Much like my "theory" about Yi Guren: "play it if you want to be a weepy lonely literatus". Yangguan San Die: "play it if you want to be weepily bidding goodbye to your friends all the time".

[Si]

yeah i know its about a crying princess. is there anything in the mode that says it should be sad etc.

[charliecharlieecho]

What mode is it in, given that it's in the zheng diao? (Asking your teacher is not allowed :-) )

[wingplum]

This is about the Qeen of The Han dynasty Emperor Wu, you may find it in ÕÑÃ÷ÎÄÑ¡,³¤ÃŸ³,writen by ˾ÂíÏàÈç. Ask your teacher for detail.

[Si]

I learnt from Silk qin that this Piece only survives in the Mei An qin pu, but appaently is fron the Han dynasty. How can a piece magically appear in Mei An after a 2000 year absence in other books.

Its in Chu mode what ever that is.

[Charlie Huang]

I think you're confusing story with history here...

[charliecharlieecho]

syburn said:

I learnt from Silk qin that this Piece only survives in the Mei An qin pu, but appaently is fron the Han dynasty. How can a piece magically appear in Mei An after a 2000 year absence in other books.

Its in Chu mode what ever that is.

According to Lieberman's "A Chinese Zither Tutor" (a cut-down version of his PhD thesis about the Meian Qinpu) its in the Huangzhong tuning (i.e. the zhang diao) and gong mode.

So where does JT's 'Chu mode' come from?

[SCWGuqin]

"Apparently is from the Han dynasty".

EVERYTHING IN CHINA IS "APPARENTLY" THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLDER THAN IT REALLY IS. This is like China 101. CMY didn't magically reappear, it was composed or adapted probably in the 19th century.

[laoqinyou]

chang men yuan is in the long yin guan qin pu. That makes it a composition of around the late 1700s unless
the pieces in that book are older (possible). Put another way we simply don't know when it was composed.
I think it has some similarities with guan shan yue (also found in the long yin guan qin pu aka as the supreme
high ancestor of the mei an qin pu). I honestly don't think the pieces in that book are MUCH older than 1600-1700
at most. Old enough though, but no one has done compelling musicological analysis of that particular qin pu.
<opinion>
I've
played through a couple of the simpler pieces and played a bit of a few other things to make sure they are what they
seem to be. The mei an qin pu as we know it seems to have come from at least two directions. 1. the long yin guan qin pu giving us pieces like the mei-an ping shai (a variation on the more common simpler version), guan shan yue, etc., and 2. pieces like sao shou wen tien which although more complex than qiu sai yin, is related and
obviousally derived, and a few other pieces. Some of the 2nd category of non longyinquan pieces are older and were apparently redone (feng lei yin).
Ask Wang Yanqing if you see him :->.
</opinion>
Actually one of the more curious things is that I have questioned various people about the mei-an sao shou
wen tien and they always say something like: well it's the *same* piece as qiu sai yin. So compare say
Liu Chicheng playing saoshouwentien (or Xu Lisun as you can find him on my web site if not on the recent
Hugo CD), and compare that to say Wu Wenguang playing Qiusaiyin. Related yes. The same piece???
Barring more notes, and way up tempo, and different rhythms, and a different tuning (by one string), I guess so. Interesting what the "same" means in qin land.

[charliecharlieecho]

laoqinyou said:

I have questioned various people about the mei-an sao shou
wen tien and they always say something like: well it's the *same* piece as qiu sai yin. So compare say Liu Chicheng playing saoshouwentien (or Xu Lisun as you can find him on my web site if not on the recent Hugo CD), and compare that to say Wu Wenguang playing Qiusaiyin. Related yes. The same piece??? Barring more notes, and way up tempo, and different rhythms, and a different tuning (by one string), I guess so. Interesting what the "same" means in qin land.

It seems to be widespread in Han music that people can identify a series of notes common to two pieces they will say that the pieces are the same, provided that the notes in question are 'gu-gan yin', i.e. core notes for the development of the melody. In jiangnan sizhu, for example, a piece played 'manban', in slow time' can sound faster than when it's played kuaiban, in quick time, because the kuaiban uses the gu-gan yin alone and the manban has them further apart and fills in the gaps with many more notes.