"The qin music of the Wu family",

[guzhenglover]

Does anyone have the book ÓÝɽÎâÊÏÇÙÆ× (or "The qin music of the Wu family", as its English title goes)? If so, how do you find it? What do you consider its value to be? Is it worth having?

[SCWGuqin]

Charlie seems to like it mainly for the pic of WWG...

[guzhenglover]

Well the reason why I ask about this book is that it uses both traditional tablature and western staff notation, and I am just wondering what people think about the book from this perspective (among other possible perspectives that you may wish to share with us).

[guzhenglover]

And Charlie, any idea where this book can still be purchased? It's not easy to get this book.

[SCWGuqin]

I don't know if this idea will prove popular, but I think recordings are a much better resource than staff notation. It is incomprehensible to me that a person can be considered a "musician" in standard Western circles without being able to pick things up by ear. Particularly since qin music is fluid and individual, I think qin musicians should take "sonic inspiration" from other players rather than relying on marks on a page--and marks which present a piece as 100% fixed at that.

[davidmdahl]

I think it is pretty rare the world over to learn music only from a score. The main genre where this occurs is Western classical music. The reason it works there is that classical musicians are very well trained in classical music traditions, and don't need much more than a score to know how a tune should sound. Most music in the standard repertoire is over-recorded so there is little doubt of the range of generally acceptable interpretations. Much classical music is too complicated to learn by ear, so many musicians do not develop that skill. The trouble is that for many the music goes straight from the eyes to the fingers, bypassing the ears and heart.

For other Western music, such as jazz and traditional music, learning by ear is pretty common. I remember playing an Irish tune for an experienced Irish musician who didn't know the tune, and he played it back to me note perfect after two times through the tune. The third time he played it much better than me. <g>

I agree that learning music by ear is an essential musical skill. Everyone should learn traditional music, such as Chinese music, in order to learn aural skills.

Best wishes,

David

[SCWGuqin]

It's funny, typically when I (and probably several others here) say "Western" we mean a particular vision of Western classical. That's probably because it's that vision of Western classical that has dogged Chinese musicians with an inferiority complex for the last century. I'm fairly confident that Chinese musicians don't feel "inferior" to folk, popular, pre-19th-century-standard-practice-classical, jazz, etc. genres. So those don't dance in the mind as opponents.

David: You've been using the word "traditional" a fair amount, and by it you seem to include such (to my mind) hugely different things as Euro-American folk music and qin. Judging by the context of the exchange I assume by "traditional" you mean something like "relying more on aural transmission and permitting more freedom of interpretation"...?

[Charlie Huang]

CCN has it (be it in stock or not I have not a clue).

The main attraction of this book it the appendix of notation/finger techniques at the back in Chinese and English. It looks like it was transcribed from the Wuzhi Zhai. The rest of the main book content is best described as a 'record of repertoire' of WWG and WJL. I sometomes use it if I am unsure about a certain technique or I want to know how the Wu's played a certain technique, et cetera.

Typically, I used to use the GQQJ a lot at the beginning, but now, I use solely ancient qinpu or ZCW's handwritten scores.

[Si]

Typically, I used to use the GQQJ a lot at the beginning, but now, I use solely ancient qinpu or ZCW's handwritten scores

Ohh - you lucky thing - did ZCW give you a copy of his scores?

Regarding the

appendix of notation/finger techniques at the back in Chinese and English.

worth shelling out some money for or is it similar to other english sources?

[laoqinyou]

Stumbled over this discussion. late as usual. I regard the Yushanwushi qinpu as one of the most
valuable works I've ever found. But then I've spent the last 3 years learning Zhuang Zhou Meng Die,
Chu Ge, and Lisao. The amount of work that went into the reconstructed pieces in that qinpu is great.
I feel it is very useful to have opinions about tempo, whether they be written down, or heard. I think
that Wu Jinglue has done us all a very great service with that qinpu plus his DVD recordings. He has
certainly done me a world of good. This doesn't mean there aren't "mistakes" or "different opinions" about
timing or fingering.

[guzhenglover]

Sorry what's CCN again, Charlie? And syburn/laoqinyou - any idea where I might be able to obtain a copy of this book?

[Charlie Huang]

Chinese Culture Net aka Wang Fei's guqin store site. Reach it via www.guqin.org.

[Si]

If anybody has it maybe they can scan those english pages of which Im sure are only a few. Cos seems a bit of a waist to buy a whole book just for a bit of english (even though Im sure its a great book), and I have enough Qinpu to last my a good while.

[guzhenglover]

admin said:

Chinese Culture Net aka Wang Fei's guqin store site. Reach it via www.guqin.org.

Well I've just checked out the website and unfortunately the product info says it's sold out. So it looks like a dead end here. Would you be able to recommend anywhere/anyone else?

[Charlie Huang]

That's the only place I know where. Even joyo.com doesn't have it.

[Si]

so can anyone scan the english bits of their copy?

[guzhenglover]

syburn said:

so can anyone scan the english bits of their copy?

Can syburn's request please be expanded to include the Chinese section i.e. the whole book? Hehe ;D

[guzhenglover]

I've got a copy now! Yeah.

[guzhenglover]

I forgot to mention that my teacher insists that I follow the rhythm in the western notation (which goes with the qin notation) STRICTLY as the rhythmical indication in this work represents part of the modern dapu technique as rendered by the Wu family. So it looks like we are back to the debate over rhythm guys! Which one(s) of think that we should follow the rhythm strictly as in this volume, since rhythm isn't traditionally indicated in qin notation anyhow? Even though I don't like my teacher's insistance, I guess I can understand why he's saying that to me - after all, I am a relative beginner and following the rhythm strictly at this stage of my development probably helps me greatly in the long run in building up a solid qin playing foundation. But for those of you who are advanced players, do you still think that people can interpret the rhythm their way whilst you will interpret the rhythm your way? Or is this a repeating an argument we've had before in a previous thread...?

[charliecharlieecho]

This is a continuation of what Wu Jinglüe himself taught. According to my first teacher, Wu JL insisted that all his students could copy him exactly, even to nearest second over a whole piece, before he'd let them experiment. I agree with SCWguqin's post somewhere else, though, that having to copy precisely can make us more aware of what's going on in a piece, so would recommend patience for the time being.

[SCWGuqin]

Also, if you need reassurance about whose rhythms are worth understanding----- I can understand chafing at the rhythmic idiosyncrasies of just some average teacher. But WJL and WWG together are pretty much gods. Qin music doesn't get any better than the stuff they do. Hence patience is doubly recommended. Of course, the written notation may depart from they way they actually play the pieces...

[charliecharlieecho]

guzhenglover said:

But for those of you who are advanced players

Advanced players? SCWGuqin is the best of the contributors here that I've seen/heard on the WWW, and pretty good by any measure.

It may be due to his early experiences in music making. If so can we conclude that skills may be transferable from W to E?

[davidmdahl]

I remember reading accounts of jazz musicians learning solos of the greats note-for-note so that they could even play along with recordings. The solos of Charlie Parker and Bud Powell are among those that are almost universally studied. If you accept that the analogy of a highly improvisatory style in Western music can apply to the learning of qin, it seems reasonable to learn realizations of qin music note-for-note as well.

Best wishes,

David

[Si]

Can syburn's request please be expanded to include the Chinese section i.e. the whole book? Hehe

GZL - Any chance you can scan the english bits and put on net somewhere?

[guzhenglover]

syburn said:

Can syburn's request please be expanded to include the Chinese section i.e. the whole book? Hehe

GZL - Any chance you can scan the english bits and put on net somewhere?

I'd feel uncomfortable about doing that, syburn, but if you are in Singapore you could contact me - you had my number. Are you back in Singers for good? Or when are you returning to China?