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Post by Flolei on Dec 6, 2013 16:43:43 GMT
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Post by ziman on Dec 6, 2013 21:16:40 GMT
This is a Tungso (퉁소). It is the Korean relative of the xiao. The Korean name "tungso" is actually a direct transliteration of the Chinese phrase "dongxiao" (洞簫). The tungso is derived from Ming Dynasty xiaos which spread to Joseon Korea. During the Ming era some xiaos had membrane holes just like dizi. This feature later disappeared from Chinese xiaos, but the Koreans maintained it. I must say, this auction is selling the tungso for much too cheap, maybe the seller does not know the real value of the flute. Tungso prices nowadays usually are in the $200~$500 range. The Korean tungso also has a smaller relative, the danso (단소), literally meaning "short xiao" (短簫). The danso has the same finger hole layout- and thus the same basic scale- as the tungso, but is much smaller, about the same length as a high G key dizi. The danso also does not have the membrane hole, unlike its big brother the tungso. Although the tungso is quite rare nowadays, the danso is one of the most common traditional instruments in South Korea, as it's used in school music classes much like how recorders are used by schoolchildren in western countries. Poor kids, though... the danso is much harder to play than the recorder, as I'm sure those of us who play xiao can sympathize  The basic scale played by both tungso and danso is a major pentatonic scale, very much like the Chinese major pentatonic scale (like the scale you would get from the open strings tuning of a guqin at standard tuning). However, the tuning method used seems to be different from the Chinese, so that the notes seem out of tune to Chinese ears even though they are recognizable as the notes of the major pentatonic scale. I have been trying to find information in English about the Korean scales and tuning method, but unfortunately it seems all resources I could find are in Korean. I don't have a tungso, but I do have a danso. Here's a quick recording of the basic scale it plays: www.dropbox.com/s/gt8h1sbwkprf4sd/DR0000_0053.wavI've been interested in the tungso and danso for some time now, partly because the Korean playing technique is much different from the typical Chinese xiao playing technique. They tend to use much larger vibratos than in Chinese xiao playing, and they also use several different kinds of vibrato. In videos, I often see tungso or danso players using large head-nodding or neck-waving motions to do vibratos, which I almost never see in Chinese xiao playing. There are also some very fast-paced pieces in the tungso and danso repertoire, much faster than xiao pieces tend to be. An example of a typical tungso piece: www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQrzSZd0DsEAnd a typical danso piece (this one gets really fast as it goes along): www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yvJsbwgfo8&list=PL3344211C7B4C8A58&index=36 |
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Post by ziman on Dec 6, 2013 21:50:30 GMT
Okay, too tempting, I actually went ahead and bought this tungso. It's a quarter of the price of the cheapest tungsos I have seen before this!
Now for the next headache-- where to get the membrane for it. I suppose I can use dizi membranes for the time being, although the type of membrane Korean flutes use is actually a bit different-- they prefer slightly stiffer membrane from what I've heard.
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Post by Flolei on Dec 7, 2013 7:26:03 GMT
Yes, I saw that! I was also tempted but I resisted, ha, ha, ha! The instrument is really interesting, but I must confess that I prefer Chinese music and Chinese way of playing. Too much vibrato kills vibrato and hide tone color of the instrument.
Thanks a lot for interesting explanations about danso and tungso. Videos are very clear, good choice!
Actually I will very soon start playing shakuhachi. I don't know whether I'll like it (only five fingerholes, like the tungso), but I'm really motivated to have a try! My problem this year is that from august I play only xiao and neglect dizi which is the instrument I would like to master the best. Sometimes I don't understand myself. Sometimes I like pure, quiet and meditative sounds - then I play the xiao, sometimes I need more expressive and loud ones and take the dizi.
Thanks again for interesting post and best regards.
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Post by ziman on Dec 9, 2013 5:35:57 GMT
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Post by ziman on Dec 9, 2013 5:37:28 GMT
Oh well, seems like the forum still isn't playing nice with Dropbox pictures.  Click the links and you should be able to see them.. |
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Post by Flolei on Dec 9, 2013 7:15:12 GMT
It's nice! I like the "tea-time" picture, it's very artistic.  I noticed that it has a U blowing end. Is there any flute with tang (shakuhachi) blowing end or all are with a U one? |
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Post by ziman on Dec 9, 2013 7:59:31 GMT
Is there any flute with tang (shakuhachi) blowing end or all are with a U one? Do you mean are all the Korean xiao relatives using a U blowing end, or are all my personal flutes with a U end? The answer to both questions is yes- Korean tungso and danso always have U blowing end notches. And all of my personal flutes are also U-notch ones. I've played V-notch xiaos before, but those flutes did not belong to me. Actually this is related to a question I had been wanting to ask you - I remember that you have a few nan xiaos that have the Tang mouthpiece, right? Where did you get them? I am wanting to get a Tang xiao at the moment. Originally I had planned to commission a flute from Donsiau; that plan is still on, but because the opportunity for studying guqin suddenly appeared in my life a few months ago, the savings I had originally intended to use in commissioning a Donsiau flute went towards purchasing a guqin instead. (Not regretting that- guqin is my favorite instrument after all!) While I still intend to re-build savings towards a Donsiau commission, that will probably take another year at least. I'd like to start exploring the use of the Tang xiao sooner than that, so I'm planning to get a moderately decent "stop-gap" tang xiao first. The question is where to get one (trips to Taiwan are out of the question due to schedule clashes and cost  ) As for why I'm getting interested in the Tang mouthpiece, it's because I've been getting more and more frustrated with the U mouthpiece xiaos when used in the context of guqin-xiao duet. Although it's quiet, the guqin has simply so much more room for expressiveness in timbre and pitch contour than the U notch xiao is capable of. I also felt that the more open, less sharply-focused timbre that one can get with a Tang mouthpiece might complement the guqin's sound better. |
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Post by Flolei on Dec 9, 2013 9:30:30 GMT
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Post by ziman on Dec 9, 2013 22:11:39 GMT
Thanks for the information, Flolei! It looks pretty good. By the way, on the blowing edge of this Tang xiao you have, is the black piece actually an inlay or just painted on? The Taobao site claims it's a water buffalo horn inlay, although the Taobao pictures weren't clear enough for me to be sure. The New York Qin Society has experimented with shakuhachi and guqin duets in the past couple of years. Some seem to have turned out pretty well. Here's one I liked: Composition for guqin and shakuhachi, "Lost in Thought"It was partly their work that encouraged me to consider this experiment worth trying. Also Donsiau has made numerous qinxiao which have the Tang mouthpiece, so he probably sees at least some merit in the idea... |
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Post by Flolei on Dec 11, 2013 8:16:46 GMT
It's difficult to take a clear photo of the inlay. It seems to be a real inlay, but I wouldn't swear anything about the material it is made from. The inlay is very thin and - I think - very fragile. It's the bad detail in this flute. But it's try that I never saw another one to compare.
Beautiful duet, that for sharing the link!
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Post by ziman on Dec 11, 2013 10:51:25 GMT
Hmm. The inlay is the one thing about this flute that I feel a little worried about. Firstly, Tang xiao never had mouthpiece inlays until very recent years when increased interaction with Japanese shakuhachi players introduced the inlay idea to Tang xiao makers. Although honestly, I don't mind that very much, as I'm much more concerned with the flute's playability than whether it fits some notion of authenticity. What I'm more concerned about is the inlay durability, which is most affected by how the inlay is inserted (the material matters somewhat less, even acrylic works well). A clear example of how such inlays should look like if properly inserted, can be seen here (the 8th picture in the article, the one picturing the inside of the blowing end of the flute from the back). tw.myblog.yahoo.com/blowbamboo/article?mid=3539&prev=3556&next=3531&l=a&fid=1(This article is from the blog of the Taiwanese shakuhachi and xiao maker, Xuan Mo (玄默). ) Would it be possible for you to take a picture of your Tang xiao from a similar angle so I can see the back of the inlay? I just need to verify that the inlay isn't shallowly inserted. It can easily fall out or become misaligned otherwise... which will affect the sound. And also... do you have a recording of you playing this Tang xiao? I'm curious what this one sounds like |
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Post by Flolei on Dec 11, 2013 14:22:21 GMT
Here are photos. The inlay is or superficial (decorative) or painted inside with red color as the whole flute.   Here is my first recording. You have to consider that I'm a complete beginner for this kind of mouthpiece. The air-stream seems to be to strong, the vibrato imprecise. I hope that I'll improve in the future! Tang xiao - 1st recording.wma (1013 KB) |
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Post by ziman on Dec 12, 2013 10:23:28 GMT
Thanks Flolei for the pictures and recording! The timbre of this flute is much brighter and more focused than I expected. I'm not sure if that will be a good thing for my intended application of the flute, which is dueting with guqin. But since there aren't many options for this type of flute for less than $400 or so, I think I'll try it And, can't see how the inlay was inserted because of the bore lacquer. Never mind, I shall risk it. Not like a fallen-out inlay can't be replaced anyway... The quality of the craftsmanship looks better in your pictures than in the Taobao pictures, by the way. Looks good! |
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Post by Flolei on Dec 12, 2013 12:19:33 GMT
Yes, the flute looks much better in reality. Also holes are in the same line (although it looks to be different on Taobao's pictures). The flute is strong, holes well cut.
I think that the sound is focused because I play like that. You must consider that I played before Western flutes and never had any opportunity to learn Chinese flutes with a teacher. Actually my big problem is that I don't know how to play "relaxed", unfocused. I would like to learn. I would need someone to show me, but here in Slovenia I have noone who can help me at this moment. Hope someone will come... Therefore I want to try shakuhachi. Shakuhachi is the total opposite of my way of playing. If I can't get used to it, I'll play only dizi and northern xiao.
My conclusion is this: if you know how to play unfocused, this xiao will sound very different and much better.
You're right, the sound is bright. My both other nan xiaos sound mellower (but less loud too). For qin I still think that the northern (bei) xiao is the better choice. Therefore I can't wait to hear you playing with qin. It will be very interesting.
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 12, 2013 23:04:21 GMT
Flolei, I might simply be quibbling with your terminology, but I don't think that you need a less-focused sound. You play beautifully already, and it is a good thing to start with experience and musicality, which you have in spades. However, it is a good thing to have a flexible embouchure that allows you to find the 'right' way to blow any flute to get the sound you want. Control does not have to be a rigid thing, and flexible does not mean soft or unfocused. To me it means using only the amount of muscle control that is necessary to get the results you want. A lot of good things can happen when you avoid unnecessary tension in your lips, face, and body.
So, I suggest the goal is not less focus, but just different focus. It might be a different shape to your embouchure, or aiming the air a little differently.
I always hear good music from you. So, just keep doing what you are doing.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by Flolei on Dec 13, 2013 6:56:51 GMT
David, thanks for such a kind comment. When I say "less focused", I mean less "tight", with a little wider "hole between lips", as Donsiau shows it in videos. Tang xiao - like shakuhachi - is also used for zen meditation because you can play it with calm and zithout any tension (so says Donsiau). It's what I'm not able to do for now. For Christmas I will devote some time to ameliorate this point. I think a need quietness and time.
Best wishes,
Flo.
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Post by billdsmall on Dec 13, 2013 14:29:46 GMT
Watazumi, a zen master and iconic shakuhachi player, had this simple advice: Blow "Ro" for 10 minutes each day. Ro is the sound produced when all the holes are covered. It sounds easy but it takes some serious discipline. Breathe in, blow Ro until you run out of breath. One breath, one sound. Repeat for 10 minutes. That's it. Obviously on a G xiao Ro would equate to D.
Flolei, if you can sit quietly and just blow Ro (low octave) on a Tang xiao for up to 10 minutes a day, your tension should start to decrease while calmness increases. It's called Sui Zen (blowing meditation), as opposed to the more standard Za Zen (sitting meditation). Of course it can be a great exercise for any and all vertical flutes.
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Post by Flolei on Dec 13, 2013 15:07:32 GMT
Very interesting advice, I'll try to do it! Thanks!
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