Piper's grip

[Blue]

This is really getting frustrating . . . . .

No matter how many online tutorials I consult such as
www.whistleanddrum.com/blog/pipers-grip-low-whistle-technique-demonstrated

and

www.thewhistleshop.com/beginners/lowd/lowd.htm

and use the middle part of each finger to cover the holes, the piper's grip just simply doesn't feel comfortable to me when playing for more than 1 minute.

For an alto-C xiao, I can use my smallest finger to compensate for a 6-finger xiao and avoid the piper's grip But for a low-G xiao, I can't do that: my hand hurts so much.

Does learning the piper's grip require a lot of one-on-one supervision and is the margin of maintaining a piper's grip really small?

Curiously, it isn't painful to use the four non thumb positions when playing a transverse flute for some reason.

In any case, I find a little difficult to type this using my right hand after spending all day trying to deal with the piper' grip.

Why don't they design 8 hole xiaos to be 9-holes where taping one of the holes determines if the xiao is in right-handed or left-handed mode. Dongsiau/Winston has made such prototype before and demonstrated on facebook (see attachment).

Attachments:

[Blue]

Well, since no one is giving any advice, I'm actually getting a 9-hole one custom made to see for myself . . . . .

[billdsmall]

Allen, what works for me on an 8-hole right-handed xiao is to use the first pad of my right pinky finger as a pivot point on the bottom hole. With the bottom hole firmly covered then I just let the other 3 fingers comfortably fall where they may across the other 3 lower holes. My fingers are fairly flat as they cover the lower holes. Also what really helps me is to place my right thumb as far down the xiao as is comfortable. I recommend doing finger and hand stretching exercises, which easily can be found online. With enough repetition, muscle memory hopefully starts to kick in! Please take all this with a grain of salt because I've never had a lesson, much less ever found a teacher...no doubt I've developed some bad habits.

[Blue]

You've mentioned 8-holes, which is easy and you don't necessarily need the piper's grip. I'm talking about the 6-holes version, where one absolutely needs to user the piper's grip.

[billdsmall]

Yes, I mentioned the 8-hole xiao, but the piper's grip pivot point method should also work for the 6-hole xiao and for that matter the lengthier of the 5-hole shakuhachi. In truth I've never blown a 6-hole xiao, but for years I blew the 2.4' shakuhachi, which has a ridiculously large amount of distance between the right-hand (bottom) holes, making the piper's grip a necessity. Anyway, sorry it's not working for you.

[phillipr]

Hi Allen,

I've used the "piper's grip" since I first started playing Irish music on (simple-system) flute and tin whistle. Incidentally knowing/using this grip also helped me when I played the Irish pipes for about seven years. I continue to use this grip on my simple system flutes, including my dizis and xiao (which is unfortunately cracked).

Long story short, some people find it comfortable, others don't. It does, however, require some practice and quite a bit of getting used to as, in some instances, it actually makes the stretch between holes feel a bit longer. What I was always told is that if/when your hands start to hurt, take a break and let them relax a bit, then pick the flute up and try again. Eventually your hands will get used to the stretch.

For transverse flutes the piper's grip has its advantages and disadvantages. The advantages are that it makes any ornamentation on the top hand much easier to perform since the side of the index finger is not being used to stabilize the flute. It also makes it possible to hold the flute with straight wrists. A disadvantage is that the anchor points for the flute shift to your bottom pinky, your thumbs, and your lower lip. This can often exacerbate the bane of flute players' existence: a slipping flute caused by a sweaty lower lip.

As far as the tutorials go, I completely disagree that the piper's grip consists in the use of the second pads of the T1, T2, B1, and B2 fingers. I've never used those pads for the piper's grip either on my flutes, nor when I was playing the Irish/Uilleann pipes. The only finger that I can recall ever using my second pad on is the middle finger of both the top and bottom hands. Otherwise the first pad on all my fingers were used. That being said, it's really a matter of what point on the first pad covers the holes. This will usually vary from person to person according to hand size. For me on my T1 and B1 my fingers hit the holes close to the first knuckle. On my T3 and B3 my fingers hit the holes almost right in the middle of the pad. And on my B4 (there's no T4 usage in Irish music) my fingers hit the holes towards the end of the pad/tip of the finger.

I agree with the above poster who says you should simply let your fingers fall where they are most comfortable. It's interesting that they use their pinky finger as the pivot point. I think I typically use my index fingers as the pivot points and then work from there. Again, muscle memory will also play a large role. The more you practice it, the more your hands will just naturally fall into that position. If you want a real exercise in finger stretch, I'd trying finding an inexpensive "Low-D" Irish whistle and try making that stretch. If you can make that stretch you can make pretty much any stretch. Thanks to my years of playing Irish flute and whistle, I've never had a problem with the xiao stretch. In fact, the holes often feel almost uncomfortably close together.

[phillipr]

Oh, I forgot to mention that the piper's grip isn't necessarily a grip that comes from intense one-on-one training. I naturally picked up my flute and whistles using the piper's grip. Many Irish - and from what I've seen Chinese - flute players naturally pick up their flutes with this grip. If one is used to the standard (Western/Classical?) flute players grip, learning the piper's grip can be somewhat of a challenge. A teacher is not necessary, but may be helpful.

[Blue]

I do agree that placing the right thumb as far down the xiao as is comfortable does help with the 6-finger xiao.

Tx and Bx fingers . . . . . could you explain this in terms of thumb, index, middle, ring, and pinky?

[phillipr]

I stole the Tx and Bx terminology from the second website you linked in your initial post. T1 would refer to the index finger of your top hand; B1, the index finger of your bottom hand. T2 and B2 would refer to the middle fingers of your top and bottom hands. T3 and B3, the ring fingers of your top and bottom hands. I suppose you could follow the logic and apply it to the pinky as well, but the pinky isn't a commonly used finger in Irish music unless one is playing the Uilleann pipes, in which case you just refer to it as the pinky.