Xiao pitch question - new to the forum

[clement]

Hello,

I just discovered this forum, it's a pleasure to find a community like this!
Also, as I am new here I would like to take the opportunity of this thread to shortly introduce myself, at least my "relationship" with China.
My name is Clément, I live in Belgium. I was in high school in France and had the chance to study Chinese for three years, and it included a trip to China! This was in 2004. I am a musician, and in 2011 a band I'm playing in got invited to tour in China, so it was a great opportunity to try to work again on the language. We were invited again in 2012, and that's from this trip that I brought back the Xiao I spent more or less an hour with the man in the shop, this was my first and last lesson with the instrument, so I'm learning by myself.


So here is my question:

So far I found a way to blow and put my mouth to make nice low notes, not yet at ease with the octave up.

My Xiao has a F written on it, so I would assume I'd get an F when I do the following: X XXX 0000
But if I put a tuner, it seems closer to an E.
Same if I do the following: X XXX XXXX I should get C but what I get is closer to a B, and so on for the other notes.

However, I noticed that if I put my mouth (or direct my blow?) a bit differently I'm getting closer to the correct pitch. The only problem is that the note itself sounds less good.
So my problem is that the sweet spot I found makes the pitch almost one semitone under.

I was wondering if it could come from the flute, its design, or I guess I should just try harder

Anyways if anyone has experienced a problem like this one, I'd be curious to hear about it.


Thanks a lot!

Clément

[Blue]

(*Sigh*)
Since no one is answering your question, I'll reluctantly respond. It's very difficult to provide advice on how to properly blow the xiao via the internet. An in-person assessment would be much easier.

Yes: if you xiao has a “F” written on it, then supposedly X XXX 0000 would yield an F and X XXX XXXX should yield a C. It's very tempting to assume that your xiao is tuned to an “E” since for such case, X XXX 0000 would yield an E and X XXX XXXX would yield a “B.”

I would recommend that whenever possible, you play the following method:

X XXX X000 ==> X XXX X0X0
X XXX 0000 ==> X XXX 00X0
etc.

That way, it will be easier for you to balance the xiao with both of your hands. Also make sure that your thumb properly covers the thumb hole or you might acquire pitch errors.

Yes, directing your blow a bit differently may affect the pitch. Often I subconsciously blow a dizi at a lower pitch than it was originally designed because I hate high pitches. However, it is difficult to assess if you direction of blowing needs adjustment without witnessing this in person.

If you want to try higher octaves, try tightening your lips, focus your breath more, and blow more strongly into the pipe (easier say than done of course).

I'm assuming that the craftsman correctly tuned the xiao. Often one would request a electronic tuner at the music store when testing the xiao or dizi.

[clement]

Thank you very much for your time!

Yes I actually first learned the method with the fingers you are suggesting (like on this page made by Dick from the forum www.goAmcan.com/lessons/Xiao-01.html), so I will stick to those.

I will go on with experimenting, but of course having someone in my city to help would be a plus.

[ziman]

Hi Clement,

Sorry for the slow reply, haven't been up here for a few days.

On the pitch issue, the problem might indeed lie with your blowing and/or problems with the flute itself, but, there are a few other factors that could affect the pitch of the xiao.

Try checking each of these:

1. Does your xiao have a tuning joint? If yes, one joint, or two? If one joint, push it in or pull it out to varying lengths and see if there is some length that results in the flute being in tune. If two joints, make sure the lower joint (the one towards the foot of the flute) is pushed in completely, and then do the same push-in/pull-out testing with the upper joint.

2. Check the temperature. Like all other materials, bamboo contracts with cold and expands with heat. In effect, the flute shrinks slightly in cold and expands slightly in heat. Thus, if you're playing in a very warm area but the flute was tuned in a significantly colder climate, the notes will sound flatter. In my experience the average amount of change is roughly 20 cents flatter per degree celsius rise in temperature (and conversely, roughly 20 cents sharper per degree drop in temperature).

3. Check the concert pitch setting on your tuner. Most xiao are tuned to A=440Hz. If it's not already set up that way, set your tuner's concert pitch setting to A=440Hz and see if the xiao is in tune at that setting.

If the problem is still present and unexplained after these three checks, then also consider:

4. What type of xiao do you have? Some xiao made to play specialized types of traditional ensembles may not conform to modern concert pitch standards. Tuning can be a bit tricky because the pitch standards of such xiao usually depend on the particular ensemble/group the instrument was made for. Although, such xiao are rare nowadays and are usually made by commission only, so this situation is quite unlikely.

Lastly, another question would be--

5. Does your xiao have a wide bore? If yes, an insufficiently-focused airstream can very easily cause notes to be too flat. If your xiao is indeed a wide bore instrument, then you will need to work hard on refining your embouchure.

(Note: it's not that wide bore xiao are bad! They have many charming characteristics, it's just that they're relatively harder for beginners to start out on. So if yours is a wide bore xiao, keep it, and work at it. It's worth it. )

[ziman]

Correction: roughly 2 cents per degree celsius change in temperature, not 20 cents.

[davidmdahl]

Ziman, your paragraph 2 is confusing to me. I expect the pitch of a flute to be higher when the temperature is warm and flat when it is cold. It is sometimes a challenge to play several flutes in a cool space since a flute cools off when not being played.

Best wishes,

David

[clement]

Thanks a lot for your answers. You don't have to apologize for the slow reply, as it was really fast, and you didn't even "have" to, so thanks again.

1 - My Xiao can be separated into 3 pieces for transportation. Are those joints what you call tuning joints? Anyways, if I try to pull a bit the first part, it seems to be even flatter.

2 - There were big temperature changes lately, and I hadn't checked the pitch of the xiao before. Though I'm a lot of time 40 cents under the correct pitch, so that's a lot!

3 - Yes, A=440Hz.

I did some other tests and I can manage to get the correct pitch if the xiao makes an angle of like 25° with my body. I used to play more with a 40°, it's crazy how this can change a lot!

I didn't have the time to try further lately, I think the person I'm living with might start to be a bit irritated by my bad playing, but I'll report back when I have the time.

Thanks again,

Clément

[Blue]

Well, we're obliged to provide good customer service even if I'm currently disillusioned and suffer from the blues.

The metal joint closest to the mouthpiece is the true tuning joint. The other joint is meant only for transportation convenience given the long length of the non-root xiao (often beyond 80cm). Root xiaos are typically 60cm so one metal joint would suffice, which would be the tuning joint.

Yes, pulling the joint will make the flute longer, therefore making the tone lower pitch. The xiao is a mellow instrument compared to the dizi. As long as you don't play after 10pm, nobody should complain unless the walls are thin (which was the case for me in a certain hotel in Spain). Therefore, feel free to play the xiao in your room.

The dizi is way too loud, however. Play the dizi in the woods, in the park, in a music practice room, or in a piano room.

[Blue]

One person who was once my best friend used to joke that the dizi is not only loud, but it's magical enough to conjure certain creatures to suddenly appear. If played in the apartment, the dizi will conjure up either angry or very nosy neighbors. If played out in the woods, tourists might suddenly appear and start siting around you staring at your with their enchanted eyes.

There's also the superstition that playing the xiao on a minor scale will conjure ghosts, but I have never succeeded in doing that. Maybe you'll make your roommate very sleepy with the mellow tone of the xiao.

[Flolei]

Hello and welcome to the forum,
Other answer well to your auestions, therefore I have very few to add.
As your F xiao plays to low (not too high), I would rather say that it's a little too low pitched, which shouldn't be a too big problem, if you play alone.
Enjoy your instrument and don't hesitate to tell us how you improve with it!
Best wishes,
Flolei

[davidmdahl]

Feb 16, 2013 9:26:23 GMT Blue said:

<snip>
The dizi is way too loud, however. Play the dizi in the woods, in the park, in a music practice room, or in a piano room.

I have a dizi or two with the dimo hole taped over so I can practice without the buzz. It can be a great hearing saver. <g> Sometimes I just don't want to mess with adjusting the membrane.

Best wishes,

David

[davidmdahl]

Feb 16, 2013 9:26:23 GMT Blue said:

Well, we're obliged to provide good customer service even if I'm currently disillusioned and suffer from the blues.
<snip>

Sorry to hear that you have the blahs. February does that to people. Hang on though, Spring is just around the corner. Until then playing music with others is a great antidote.

Best wishes,

David

[ziman]

Feb 14, 2013 2:02:37 GMT davidmdahl said:

Ziman, your paragraph 2 is confusing to me. I expect the pitch of a flute to be higher when the temperature is warm and flat when it is cold.

Indeed, that is right. I got confused myself after playing in several concerts here and finding that my xiao seemed to get flatter as the concerts went along. Of course, what actually happened was, the halls I played in were very cold, thus the flute cooled faster than it could be warmed by my breath. Didn't realize how cold the rooms were until today, when I had another concert. (Living in Minnesota tends to make one cold-insensitive... [g] )

I am sorry for the confusion. To clement: it should usually be as David says-- the xiao should get sharper as it gets warmer, and flatter as it gets colder.

Feb 16, 2013 8:58:40 GMT clement said:

I did some other tests and I can manage to get the correct pitch if the xiao makes an angle of like 25° with my body. I used to play more with a 40°, it's crazy how this can change a lot!

25°, you mean even closer to your body? Does that blowing angle cause any tension in your neck or compression in your throat?

[clement]

Of course it's not that noisy at all, it's just that when you're living at two persons in a single-room apartment and are both musicians, it sometimes is a bit difficult

Indeed this more closed-angle isn't comfortable, and the change of picth is not convincing.

Actually when I play tones 1 2 3 4 and 6 (still got trouble with the lower tone - 5) from here: www.goAmcan.com/lessons/Xiao-01.html
I'm really close to an E major scale, so I guess I'll work that way and assume the Xiao's in E.

[Blue]

Another way to approach this issue of whether or not your xiao is E-pitched or F-pitched is the distance between the finger holes. It might take some time for me to ask around regarding the typical hole spacing for the F-pitched xiao.

Would you be able to share some pictures of the xiao, especially the place where the letter is written? Might also be helpful that you take a picture of the name of the xiao's maker. Maybe someone could contact a store that sells such xiao to get more information about the pitch.

If there only happened to be a forum member living in Brussels who could directly help you . . . . . .

[edcat7]

Feb 16, 2013 9:43:48 GMT Blue said:

One person who was once my best friend used to joke that the dizi is not only loud, but it's magical enough to conjure certain creatures to suddenly appear. If played in the apartment, the dizi will conjure up either angry or very nosy neighbors. If played out in the woods, tourists might suddenly appear and start siting around you staring at your with their enchanted eyes.

There's also the superstition that playing the xiao on a minor scale will conjure ghosts, but I have never succeeded in doing that. Maybe you'll make your roommate very sleepy with the mellow tone of the xiao.

That is very funny. I remember playing the dizi next to a pond and before long a bunch of elderly hikers wanted their picture taken next to me.

[theclemente]

By the way guys, whats the standart key that the Xiaos are in? Major F,G or A?

[Blue]

Standard keys are F and G.
But in Taiwan, I know how to obtain A, Bb, alto-C, and even alto-D!
Carrot music is a rare exception in many online Chinese musical instrument stores that actually offer bass-A xiao. Otherwise, you'll have to find a crafts person to custom make it for you.