Power of the circle?

[valdae]

I have two zhongruans, one with reversed crescent sound holes, and the other with circular sound holes. I felt inside both and could feel no braces under the top. Early on I found this rather strange compared to Western made acoustic guitars. So, do ruans have braces, or is the sound derived solely from the top and back wood? When I first began playing the ruan I was astounded at how thick the top wood is compared with how thin the top wood is on Western guitars. Considering the warmth of tone and the dynamic range of the ruan I was quite surprised by this distinct difference in instrument construction.

[edcat7]

I had the choice of different sound-holes for my zhongruan and was told it wouldn't make any difference to the sound. My bridge arrived a week after the zhongruan and as my zhongruan was lying around forlornly, my wife criticised it for looking 'cheap'. Now, she, my teacher and I all love the tone. I'm not familar with the anatomy of the guitar and so cannot make any comparisons.

What make are your zhongruans, and will they be your last ones?

[valdae]

They will be far from my last ones. The bigger one I got from Shoppingchinanow.com [reversed crescents], and the smaller one through Tradetang.com. All I know is that they were both out of Beijing. I'm considering getting another this Summer but I'd rather wait to get something higher end. At this point I can definitely say that I plan to collect them.

[xindi]

Yes...that's right. Most guitars are around 5mm thick - usually western spruce; red cedar or maple. In contrast, archtop guitars are tapered thickness, extending up to around 2cm at the thickest wedge, tapering off down to around 5mm by the frets. These can be as thick as 3/8ths of an inch (not sure what the metric is).

The ruans have that open grain balsa lookalike texture - unlike a pipa (lute) or liuqin, which has a much finer close grain wood (paulownia etc). There are ruans with no crescent or open cuts; some with cello like 'f' cuts symmetrical. Guitars tend to have a finer close grain wood (like German Spruce, which is prized for its closer grain, as is red cedar). Such woods aren't used for ruans (they are however, for other chinese instruments).

I've never dissected one, but from what I can see, it's almost banjo like in its hollowness inside lol. Compare with the pipa lute which has three internal bracing pillar posts, but it is a completely different instrument and sound, designed to 'kill' the sustain effect of the resonance - that way it can be played very fast, without muddying the notes. The ruan, is very different - it is richer, deeper, and supported by the extra string thickness which makes the best of the open texture of the open grain soundboard.

The strings are mighty thick! Very hard to pluck rapidly without a plectrum. I can see why plectrums are used - my fingers would break.

Funny enough, a guitar player friend of mine tells me that he thought my pipa was louder than his guitar. I thought his guitar was louder than my pipa (lute). This is probably down to position of playing; I hold my lute closer to my ears, than he holds his guitar. Equally, I strike the strings with much greater force than he does. Another source, details the pipa can be heard up to a mile away in a quiet valley (hhmmmm?? apocryphal?) - unamplified. The difference in loudness/perception isn't clear to me, however if say, an instrument creates sound at 20Hz-20,000Hz, then any sound beyond this reference range, will be experienced as subjective 'loudness' (like sub-bass thumping) or 'penetration' (supra-aural frequencies). The ruan will be rich with the sub-bass side - due to its thickness.

Other things too - the plectrum style of the ruan, generates more force, than with a guitar string (less thick; less tension? which is struck with less force than a ruan. Again - for a guitar - less distance to strike the string before jamming fingers with the next string and botching up. If the Moment is proportional to Force x Distance)...there is a greater moment generated for a ruan, than a guitar playing - since the ruan strings are further apart than guitar strings; and since the pick required, needs to move a much thicker string, to a greater vibration mode.

My guess is that these combined factors, not the top sound board itself, - all these factors combined - which enable the ruan to sound as loud as it does. The thickness of the top board itself, if it is at all comparable to a flute, would only determine how 'dense' or 'rich' the sound is. I.e. a thin walled flute, sounds brighter, resonant and lighter, whereas a thick walled flute, sounds deeper; richer....if all other factors are constant.

I waffle....and I don't even play the ruan

[edcat7]

Apr 12, 2012 21:18:17 GMT valdae said:

They will be far from my last ones. The bigger one I got from Shoppingchinanow.com [reversed crescents], and the smaller one through Tradetang.com. All I know is that they were both out of Beijing. I'm considering getting another this Summer but I'd rather wait to get something higher end. At this point I can definitely say that I plan to collect them.

I'm very happy with my zhongruan. However should i one day win the lottery there is one I'd like to get. ( I don't really want to encourage you...and me

[valdae]

Thanks, that was all very interesting. I have to say, I was very intrigued by the pipa early on, long before the ruan. But the picking technique required to play it scared the hell out of me. I’ve seen video of Wu Man and her playing is amazing. I have numerous pipa players on my You Tube account, and the variety of approaches the players use is startling. One thing I noticed about Chinese players, unlike their Western counterparts, they don’t use wide bends or blues bends on the ruan. When I first started playing I broke a few second strings from using wide bends until I tried a different brand of strings. Speaking of which, I tried using American flatwounds only once – HORRIBLE – tinny, toneless, and strident! Comparing the two I noticed Chinese flatwounds have a looser winding than American strings. You can see the difference easily.

So the pipa has internal bracing? One thing about the pipa that piqued my interest (no pun intended) was its absence of sound holes. I was amazed by its volume and projection, but of course with its shallow depth how could it not project greatly? I have never heard a pipa in person but I can only image it is much louder than the ruan, or so I would assume. A friend once told me as he was coming to visit, while I was playing in my backyard, he could hear me two blocks away. And if memory serves, it was the smaller ruan I was playing at the time.

As for picks, I use a variety but mostly mix it up with medium to extra heavy. Heavy picks, particularly stone picks, give both ruans an almost “breathy” sound quality. I read somewhere that ruanist utilize over 20 picking techniques. I’ve observed a number of variations on You Tube. Of course, in parallel, they use hammer ons, pull offs, trills, what I call ‘mini bends’, and of course, crazy slides, among other embellishments!

The two instruments I own are different yet similar. They both have the same diameter of 15 ¾ inches, but the older of the two has a slightly greater depth. They sound completely different and I can hear the difference in recordings. The older ruan, with its reversed crescent sound holes (which are quite large) has a brighter, more open sound, yet has wonderful warmth. The smaller ruan with the circular sound holes reminds me of an archtop – the projection is incredible, and with the right attack has great “bark”! Its sound is more focused, more in your face (the neck is narrower, which I’m not crazy about). The older ruan utilizes solid rosewood for the body and neck and is quite hefty. The smaller one has a sunburst finish, is much lighter and the build quality is not as good, though it sounds great.

There is a zhongruan at shoppingchinanow.com which is a real beauty. Its body is made from striped African ebony, with metal frets. To tell you the truth, I would love to have a ruan with cedar for the top and back wood. My 12 string has a cedar top and has great warmth of tone. I can only imagine what cedar would sound like on a ruan. The price point is fantastic. If I were to buy a solid rosewood body guitar, say a Martin, Gibson, or Taylor, I’d be playing upwards of $2k, easily. For that same amount of money I could buy a high end ruan and two medium grades, with change left over for strings. So, yeah, I’m collecting!

[valdae]

Ed, if I won the lottery I'd be up to my soul in ruans!

[valdae]

Oh, BTW, the smaller ruan has bamboo frets - totally different feel and sound compared to bone frets.

[xindi]

Apr 13, 2012 0:42:42 GMT valdae said:

Thanks, that was all very interesting. I have to say, I was very intrigued by the pipa early on, long before the ruan. But the picking technique required to play it scared the hell out of me. I’ve seen video of Wu Man and her playing is amazing. I have numerous pipa players on my You Tube account, and the variety of approaches the players use is startling.

Haha...if everyone watched the videos of John Williams, maybe guitarists would be too petrified to pick it up!

Where I live, guitars are a dime a dozen (well, around £10-20 up) and everyone is a guitar player. Mostly badly. Probably because of:



Equally, the ukelele is the next most annoying instrument to be found where I live (but it makes a nice sound!):



Well it's not annoying...its marketing is...but it's not as bad as the former lol.


When it comes to the pear shaped pipa:

www.pipaqingcelebration.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/PipaPicture11.jpg [/img]

Yes there are around 40 different fingering techniques. You don't need to know all of them - like for instance, the ruan uses a single plectrum to strike the notes - if this is one technique, this is all that's required to make music.

With the pipa, there are right handed and left handed techniques. For a right handed player, the right hand does most of the playing, but the left hand is the fountain of expression.

In the right hand, the finger dance between thumb and index finger is the most basic technique (crikes - it's taken me two months to get it!). The 'wheel' or 'lun zhi' goes in two directions (another 2 techniques) and if you use your hand first to strike all four chords and then go lun, that's a 4th technique). If you use your thumb plectrum to tremelo one string alone, that's a 5th technique.

This is the right hand only. By the time you get to intermediate fingering techniques, you will be ready for the 'martial school' of pipa playing. Not only will you be spawning firing pipa nails against crouching tigers on the floral prints of cushions and stunning the pet cat with plectrum missiles which untape due to the frenetic fury of pipa playing - both friends and enemies will weep in awe as advanced players get to hypnotise family and make them keel over begging for mercy (to stop). The problem with these higher techniques however, is that losing pipa nails like this gets expensive, as does breaking strings every weekend.

For the left hand technique, there is indeed bending techniques - and the bending can be done by increased pressure of the left fingers against the string (which is why, you don't see the players 'bending the string wildly away from the board - this is more of a right handed technique). The top 6 triangular frets, also have a different density, and lend themselves for use in more expressive techniques of the left hand. One of my favourite left hand techniques which I've just discovered after watching youtube for hours, is how to do 'the machine gun drill' where the rotating right hand wheel, and the left hand technique, makes a submachine gun sound, which sounds like it's about to go into melt down. The octave glissando technique (I think this is different from the 'bend' or 'slide' which is more of a blues term?) is very attractive on a pipa - I wear plaster on my fingers to save them when practicing this technique, since the pipa steel high string, is not always wrapped in wound nylon, making it as sharp as a cheese wire.

Problem is...mostly I'm learning by myself, and I'm slowly trying to piece together the techniques for playing by studying the videos on a limited internet broadband width (there are no pipa resources in English as far as I can tell). It will take months/years to try and piece it together, learning in this way.

So the pipa has internal bracing? One thing about the pipa that piqued my interest (no pun intended) was its absence of sound holes. I was amazed by its volume and projection, but of course with its shallow depth how could it not project greatly? I have never heard a pipa in person but I can only image it is much louder than the ruan, or so I would assume. A friend once told me as he was coming to visit, while I was playing in my backyard, he could hear me two blocks away. And if memory serves, it was the smaller ruan I was playing at the time.

Yes - there are three pillars - circular, which brace the pipa internally. The thickness of the board is approximately 3/8ths of an inch, which is why, it cannot just be purfled onto the pear shaped body, like a guitar. In fact, there is a tone hole - hidden just under the 'bridge' - it is approximately 2cm wide.

Having strummed several ruans, I think the ruan is 'louder' than the pipa, but the pipa has greater 'penetrating power'. The pipa is clearer; more like jade pearls trickling, whereas the ruan, is more like horse hooves. The bass notes of the pipa, are not particularly strong, unless it is a superlative high grade pipa made of mahogany or redwood, sandalwood. Rosewood tends towards brightness in pipa design - the brightness is actually valued, since it enhances the clear shimmering texture of the treble string and higher.


You must live in a quiet neighbourhood? In the cities - I measured the background noise levels and it ran into 34db to 41db (!) Where I live, is around 16dB - 18dB. The pipa seems loud to me!!!

Your ruans sound very good. My pipa is a cheap model, but it actually works great! I saw the same thing selling for over 4x the cost on one of those internet websites. Not to say that they are overpriced...I just happened to get mine for an incredible bargain (minus the nightmare of lugging it across the world).

There is a zhongruan at shoppingchinanow.com which is a real beauty. Its body is made from striped African ebony, with metal frets. To tell you the truth, I would love to have a ruan with cedar for the top and back wood. My 12 string has a cedar top and has great warmth of tone. I can only imagine what cedar would sound like on a ruan. The price point is fantastic. "]]There is a zhongruan at shoppingchinanow.com which is a real beauty. Its body is made from striped African ebony, with metal frets. To tell you the truth, I would love to have a ruan with cedar for the top and back wood. My 12 string has a cedar top and has great warmth of tone. I can only imagine what cedar would sound like on a ruan. The price point is fantastic.

With a sunburst finish....how can you tell whether underneath is lacquered plyboard or chipboard.

Oh you mean this one?

www.shoppingchinanow.com/shop/ebony-wood-zhongruan-r02.html

Tell me about it...the cost of building a stringed instrument is .... something else. I guess you have experience with electric pickups for your 12 string?

I'm working on making an electric pipa, but I have a lot of headaches to sort out already with it. I wonder what an electric ruan would sound like?

Yes...its true that chinese instruments are at least, in the 'affordable' range. Even for flutes - compared to a western flute - first class handmade chinese flutes cost 1/10th of what a western classical flute might cost. Oops. Maybe not for a Stradivarius violin lol. Forget what I just said lol!!

[valdae]

>>Yes there are around 40 different fingering techniques. You don't need to know all of them - like for instance, the ruan uses a single plectrum to strike the notes - if this is one technique, this is all that's required to make music.<<

True this, but keep in mind watching Chinese players go full tilt I’ve seen them use variations on circle picking, hybrid picking and other picking techniques. I still have to learn tremolo and I predominately down pick.

>>In the right hand, the finger dance between thumb and index finger is the most basic technique (crikes - it's taken me two months to get it!). The 'wheel' or 'lun zhi' goes in two directions (another 2 techniques) and if you use your hand first to strike all four chords and then go lun, that's a 4th technique). If you use your thumb plectrum to tremelo one string alone, that's a 5th technique.<<

The picking techniques of the pipa are astounding. Having watched on the “Tube” (wow-that word has a different meaning now) various pipaists I am always floored by their playing! The motor skills this requires, which is the opposite of Western fingerpicking are significant! It’s almost as if the right had becomes a dancer independent of the body to accomplish the task of generating sound.

>> Problem is...mostly I'm learning by myself, and I'm slowly trying to piece together the techniques for playing by studying the videos on a limited internet broadband width (there are no pipa resources in English as far as I can tell). It will take months/years to try and piece it together, learning in this way.<<

This is why I’m glad I chose the ruan. They are both hypnotically beautiful instruments in sight and sound, but the ruan is the easier of the two to play. I’m 57 years old and the thought of (54 when I took up the ruan) the challenge of the pipa scared the heck out of me. Once I realized the picking technique needed it was ruan, take me away!

>>Having strummed several ruans, I think the ruan is 'louder' than the pipa, but the pipa has greater 'penetrating power'. The pipa is clearer; more like jade pearls trickling, whereas the ruan, is more like horse hooves.<<

I love that analogy. You can achieve a certain delicacy with the ruan, but the ruan is not in the same ballpark as the pipa regarding dynamic range. I love how I can play around with the sound of the ruan with different pick gauges, and of course attack.

>> With a sunburst finish....how can you tell whether underneath is lacquered plyboard or chipboard.<<

I’m convinced that the sunburst ruan has a plywood body. I’ve seldom seen sunburst ruans on You Tube, and believe it is because these instruments are considered lower grade. For instance, on the sunburst ruan the tailpiece has a screw holding it in place, on the larger older one it is glued in place. Still, the sunburst ruan has a wonderful sound and I use it often because of its lighter weight, though the narrow fingerboard is annoying at times.

>>I'm working on making an electric pipa, but I have a lot of headaches to sort out already with it. I wonder what an electric ruan would sound like?<<

I’m curious myself as to how an electric ruan would sound. As for an electric pipa, Wu Man had one custom built – SWEET! The sound is amazing! Have at it. I would think because of its shallow body feedback shouldn’t be much of a problem.

>>Yes...its true that chinese instruments are at least, in the 'affordable' range. Even for flutes - compared to a western flute - first class handmade chinese flutes cost 1/10th of what a western classical flute might cost. Oops. Maybe not for a Stradivarius violin lol. Forget what I just said lol!!<<

I could get another ruan in the $200 to 300.00 price range, but I’d rather a more significant instrument, but yes, the price point is great. You won’t have to spend an arm and a leg to get something decent.

[edcat7]

Any ruan made by Song Guang Ning would be great. However I think for the layman the zhongruan looks and sounds too much like a guitar.

I'll busk when I retire and nearly every busker I see plays the guitar. Thank goodness I'm learning other instruments.

[valdae]

Actually, for a lot of laymen the ruan looks like a surreal banjo that sounds like a guitar. Anytime I would take it out of the case for people who knew what a banjo was – that’s what they would see – until I played it. Then I’d have to explain what it was, where it came from, etc.

And then there were those who didn’t know what a banjo was – and the zhongruan TOTALLY freaked them out! If I don’t play it for two straight days and I open that case I go, mother God, how do I play this? Of course, I know how to play it, but, time away from it always induces incredulity.

The day I got it, I pulled it out of the case, stared at it for almost a full minute, put a pick to it and haven’t been the same since!

[xindi]

This is why I’m glad I chose the ruan. They are both hypnotically beautiful instruments in sight and sound, but the ruan is the easier of the two to play. I’m 57 years old and the thought of (54 when I took up the ruan) the challenge of the pipa scared the heck out of me. Once I realized the picking technique needed it was ruan, take me away!

I couldn't understand the GDGD string pitch system. I can understand ADEA better My left brain don't work lol.

Can't tell which is easier to play ... since I'm teaching myself at the moment. I'm not even going to try and play melodies and tunes, until I master the fingering techniques better than I can at the minute. My main problem ...is that I keep losing my pipa plectrums. I've lost 7 so far. I ain't going to have enough to play with by the end of the week

I’m convinced that the sunburst ruan has a plywood body. I’ve seldom seen sunburst ruans on You Tube, and believe it is because these instruments are considered lower grade. For instance, on the sunburst ruan the tailpiece has a screw holding it in place, on the larger older one it is glued in place. Still, the sunburst ruan has a wonderful sound and I use it often because of its lighter weight, though the narrow fingerboard is annoying at times.

Yes...that's what I was thinking. My own pipa, is incredibly light, compared to industrial middle-weight quality ones (think I might get one imported over ...soooo tempting...like I need another hole in my head>) and it is actually ideal for me ... I don't tire as quick I suppose using the lighter weight.

One thing which I'm a fan of, since I play exclusively solo (errr...Billynomates) is foregoing that high shrill modern pitch and going for baroque tuning at A=415Hz. It pierces my ears far less; is easier on the string tension and is way more relaxed. I don't know anyone else who does this, but I realised that I like lower pitched instruments, and although the pipa is bright and penetrating, it's still very colourful at baroque tuning (maybe in the Tang Dynasty the tuning was lower than the contemporary trend for increasing shrillness?)

I’m curious myself as to how an electric ruan would sound. As for an electric pipa, Wu Man had one custom built – SWEET! The sound is amazing! Have at it. I would think because of its shallow body feedback shouldn’t be much of a problem.

I can't say I particularly like hers! She plays it like an electric guitar, rather than an electric pipa. Here's Yi Zhang on the electric ( fibreglass = ) pipa:

Of course this one, has virtually no acoustic contribution to the sound quality.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQJB7FgHSuo[/ur;]

[valdae]

I've seen fiberglass ruans and find the instrument hideous! I so love the woodwork of conventional ruans. It would be difficult to play a "clear" ruan.

[xindi]

Yes - I think so too. Unfortunately, when you go electric, there are few options available - either the horrid perspex one which sounds like a vase of dead flowers with no electrics and costs around US$2000, or build a custom one. I presume the fibreglass ruans which you've seen, are acoustic ones?

I'm not sure how the electrics could possibly work for an instrument which relies predominantly on internal resonance. This is a problem, trying to create a dual acoustic and electric pipa: if it has both possibilities, then the power amp is going to have to be cranked up to drown out the natural acoustics.

The one advantage of the hideous perspex machines (they aren't really in the 'instrument' class are they?) is that they can be used for silent nocturnal practice with headphones.

[valdae]

I have considered micing the ruan and running it through an acoustic guitar amp. My main worry would be overtones that could induce feedback. At low volumes through a PA this may not be a big problem. But, attack or measured attack would be the way to go. I wouldn’t have to hit it as hard to generate sound.

Usually, if I practice late at night I’m either downstairs in the kitchen or upstairs in the bathroom, and I use extra heavy picks to reduce volume.

[edcat7]

Apr 26, 2012 21:34:02 GMT valdae said:

I have considered micing the ruan and running it through an acoustic guitar amp. My main worry would be overtones that could induce feedback. At low volumes through a PA this may not be a big problem. But, attack or measured attack would be the way to go. I wouldn’t have to hit it as hard to generate sound.

Usually, if I practice late at night I’m either downstairs in the kitchen or upstairs in the bathroom, and I use extra heavy picks to reduce volume.

I've also considered plugging in my liuqin/zhongruan to an amp (there seems to be enough cheap second-hand ones on ebay) but don't know how to go about it.

[davidmdahl]

I have used the following pickup on other acoustic instruments with good results. This is probably what I would try:

www.bluestarmusic.com/KK-Sound-Big-Twin-External-GuitarInstrument-PickupJack-P385.aspx

Best wishes,

David

[valdae]

For me, the ideal setup would be a mic (internal goose neck)/ pickup configuration going into a Fishman blender or the like, where you can blend the signals and then out to a PA. This is the amp I have in mind:

www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/behringer-ultracoustic-acx900-acoustic-guitar-amplifier/480307000000000

I think this could possibly work well for the ruan.

[edcat7]

Valdae

I was thinking this would be more suitable for my budget

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330721440498?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619

and David I've also seen a budget ukulele pick-up from China. What kind of leads connect the pick-up to the amp?

[edcat7]

I've also seen this

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PREMIERSTAR-GUITAR-AMP-10WATT-AMPLIFIER-COMPATIBLE-WITH-CD-MP3?item=170822370801&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8011932959132975700

[valdae]

All you’re talking about is a cable, or line out. I’ve been researching on the net for configurations that could be used for ‘amping’ the ruan. For instance, the Fishman Company makes bridges for violin and cello with a pickup built in. I haven’t written them yet, but I’d like to ask them if I sent them a ruan bridge could they retrofit it with a pickup. Of course, this could be quite expensive. If I go with a lavaliere mic into an acoustic guitar amp (like the one in the above post) that could work, but the major problem would be volume levels before feedback would ensue, and I’d have to be careful of my dynamics. The great thing about the above amp is the XLR out, which could go through a PA, which could control the major volume or output of the ruan.

As I said earlier, a combo of pickup and internal mic would be ideal. The signals could then be mixed for the best output. In any case, it can be done but selection of equipment would be crucial.

www.fishman.com/products/filter/series:concert

[davidmdahl]

Apr 27, 2012 8:12:58 GMT edcat7 said:

and David I've also seen a budget ukulele pick-up from China. What kind of leads connect the pick-up to the amp?

The "Big Twin" pickup has a 1/4" jack housing with double-sided adhesive for attaching to the instrument. The pickup heads also have very thin double-sided jell-like adhesive of another sort for attaching to the vibrating surface.

The 1/4" jack takes a standard 1/4" plug for connecting to an amplifier. I have found the sound level and quality from the pickup to be excellent. I have also tried other pickups that were a lot cheaper, but the sound quality was usually quite harsh. I try to avoid cheap microphones and pickups.

The K&K Sound pickups sound great alone as well as mixed with microphones. The latter approach works very well when you have a good sound man.

Best wishes,

David

[davidmdahl]

Blue Star Music lists quite a number of bridge pickups that might work on a zhongruan. I don't think that you would need to commission a custom pickup.

www.bluestarmusic.com/Steel-String-Guitar-Pickups-C5.aspx

Best wishes,

David

[edcat7]

The above K&K pickups are at the moment beyond my budget and skill level. I was looking for something modest or second hand I could play around with at home. However, I will keep an eye out for something on eBay.

Thanks

Ed