Fret materials and the effect on tone

[jetz320]

Hi everybody,

It's been a while since I've been on but I was wondering if anybody could summarize it's the upper fret material that can determine the tone of a pipa. I know it depends on craftsmanship and the wood quality as well as the back wood frame too but the frets seem interesting.

However, there's always either a black or white buffalo horn used, and I find those tones quite appealing. However there's the green ox horn, and the one I played was very bright and mellow, and clear as well. The one's I have not tried are the wooden ones made of rosewood. They seem to be very bright and crisp. Can anybody clarify on this, if this assumption is even right at all? Thank you.

[xindi]

Hi Jetz,

the fret instruments are all very new to me and I have very little experience. So little in fact, I bought a £34 lute, because I couldn't tell the difference between that and one costing 10x the price.

Lately I've been trying to read up all I can about it.

It's been a while since I've been on but I was wondering if anybody could summarize it's the upper fret material that can determine the tone of a pipa. I know it depends on craftsmanship and the wood quality as well as the back wood frame too but the frets seem interesting.

I had the same thought: however if the frets are that interesting, then, if the hypothesis, that the quality of the fret is particularly important in contributing to the tone, then playing an open string versus a fretted note, extended up the pipa (for instance - you can play 1. as an open 2nd string on the pipa, or 1. as a fretted note, 4 frets from the top in a A D E A tuning.

I didn't perceive any great difference: in fact, if anything, the nature of the triangular frets, offer more 'bending' control possibilities, which equally meant, that as a newcomer, I did not have such 'control' ...so I was pretty naff at using the top 6 frets altogether.

However, there's always either a black or white buffalo horn used, and I find those tones quite appealing. However there's the green ox horn, and the one I played was very bright and mellow, and clear as well. The one's I have not tried are the wooden ones made of rosewood. They seem to be very bright and crisp. Can anybody clarify on this, if this assumption is even right at all? Thank you.

With chinese pipas, there seems to be a decorative cost, with ivory being prized ...and that is a pretty poor pakadermic policy. Flutes also offer black or white buffalo horn, with clear horn (semi-translucent) being more prized ...again, solely for its decorative and collector's nostalgia. I've seen green ox horn pegs, but not frets, although maybe I have, but I thought those were marble.

Ebony wood frets are very dense: I really like these. Rosewood is much softer, however if they are bone lined, it probably just entails that rosewood is the choice of wood to support the bone fret rather than being a true 'rosewood fret'

In terms of tonal differences - I think - I am seeing more differences in:

1. the actual wood used for the body (assuming thickness interior is equivalent). Mahogany (harder; rarer) or red sandalwood (medium hard, rarer) are more rich in the bass, than the standard rosewood.

2. Soundboards - well most use paulownia, which looks like balsa wood half the time - however the plane in which it is cut, makes a big difference, especially its cut.

3. The strings used make a huge huge difference: silver pipa strings are very different (and expensive) than tinny wound strings. Tinny wound strings, sound much better than tinnier non-wound strings.

4. The pipa plectra used, or not as the case is. Natural nail has a different texture and sound than the plectra. I've only got the cheap acrylic ones, which aren't great, but have greater attack power and volume.

5. Technique is very important - particularly for the high 6 frets which require an elegantly raised left arm. The technique of playing alters the tone on those frets - you can strike the strings with the same left hand (used for depressing onto the fret) rather than the right hand, in a right hand player.

There are other things, but generally this post drifts into the idea, that the fret materials aren't that important. Non-wearing frets are generally better.

Well after that preamble, from what I can fathom, the fret materials seem less relevant, than the fret design (some are angled; some are elevated thin strips). For instance - one of the guitar craftsman whom I've been working with, tells me that most vintage and modern guitars, use imitation plastics for their frets. Spanish guitars too. They do not, like the traditional chinese market, use ivory; tortoiseshell, rabbit paws or tiger balls for musical instruments, however the oriental market has so reified the practice and sale of expensive oxhorn decorations and large oversized bone peonies on instruments.

Don't know if any of those speculations fit, but they're the only sense I've made out of this new instrument (for me anyway!)

Best wishes.

[jetz320]

I know strings have an effect on tone color, yes. I actually really like the decorations for pipa which is why I'm asking. I find them really interesting, but yes I believe they can maybe affect the cost and sound of the instrument. I'll look into other nails as well. I notice many players now use white or clear nails. Which ones would you recommend are the best for sound?

I also care more about the tone quality for the middle ranges, that is where most playing occurs. Maybe you're mixing up that it's just that specific region of frets where the material can affect sound versus the effect on the tonal instrument? I thought it gives an overall effect to the tone.

[xindi]

Hi,

I posted this on the 'Differences in Pipas' thread started by Klara:



You can see other ones with ivory frets:



Of course, Wu Man's is a custom built one. She is probably a good role model to support your idea bout the fret material being instrumental in the quality.

In the first image, some of the more expensive ones (on the right), did not use bone/ivory lined frets. They cost around US$2500.

Yes - I wasn't sure if you were referring to all 6+24 frets, being lined with bone/ivory/horn, or just the upper 6 triangular frets. In any case, the strings still make a difference: if you play the same note 5. on the top two strings, the sound character is completely different: the fret material is the same of course, but the string thickness alone, makes the sound so so different.

That's why I am inclined to think, the fret material is less important (for me). I'm not at a point where I can play or look like Wu Man (how she plays the pipa sideways is something...).

I only have clear pipa nails - I have about 3 sets, but keep losing them because they are clear. Either I'm swallowing them up in the vacuum machine and don't notice, or a girlfriend is nicking them lol. They vary in quality greatly. The blunt ended acrylic clear ones are better sounding than the sharp unfinished edge ones. I've seen ivory ones, but I'm not happy about ivory being used. I've only seen players use clear nails with white (silk) tape. The difference with the acrylic nails is really obvious to me: the more expensive rounded ones, have an edge profile, slightly assymetrical for the index and ring fingers. It stops the 'clicking' string-nail noise which is artifact from hitting the string. You can hear it still there in recordings, but not as bad. My pipa teacher found plectra rather limiting, and preferred to play old school style (pre-Cultural revolution) with his own nails. Consequently his right hand looked rather scary, but he sounded great - his playing was really poetic and infused with intricacy. Playing with nails, I feel more liberated, but I am getting more 'clacking' noise than with nails. The volume is softer, which is more suitable for night time playing.

The guitar maker I've checked with, tells me that the imitation ivory stuff is used, in order to prevent wear: the ivory would withstand wear, much better than most woods. He sees it as functional, rather than an aural aesthetic issue. I haven't found anything compelling to think otherwise (the higher cost is definitely not compelling lol!). I wouldn't object to horn being used in fact some of the Tang Dynasty ones in museums still show evidence of the horn being used ... and the frets have survived too, due to their durability.

What pipa brand are you using at the minute? Do post pics

Yes ... the middle range is important that would derive from the body and soundboard in the list of factors affecting sound quality....particularly for resonance. I think that the bone/horn/ivory fret and string combination would contribute more to the 'bright' edge of the pipa's snappy twang.

[jetz320]

Could you post some pictures of the nails you're talking about? It would be a big help in choosing them the next time I purchase supplies. I only have one of my pipas with me right now, since I'm living in my dorm. But when I go home I'll post my other one.

The one I have here is a Dunhuang one I believe, pretty generic and has the black ox horn frets. The one I have at home uses the white ox horn and the tone quality is much more bright and mellow. That one is made by a brand called Xinghai I believe? I forgot the exact title, I just know it's a small brand from around Beijing. I know pipas are best when theyre made my a master craftsman but the sound is nevertheless very pleasing to me. I'll post some pictures and recordings once I go home.

[xindi]

Sure thing Jetz -



This one is the cheapest brand (approx US$1.5) !! This is the packaging....

The two on the right are the small and ring finger plectra:



notice how sharp the edges are - these are dangerous! They can not only scratch the wood sound board (need to cover it up a strip of paper) but are so sharp when you flex your fingers back into the palm before striking, they can really dig in. I recommend they be filed ..only I lost 3 of them so I've only got the 2 remainder....



The three plectra on the left are from the Shanghai Dunhuang company. I recommend these ones: they are less sharp at the edges and sound better. Looking at the pipa design, the plectrum nail is actually thicker than the cheaper brand. These cost about US$4.5 if bought in China. The thickness and the profile of the nail (from left: the thumb plectrum; the middle and the ring plectra). You can see I lost the other 2, so I am actually using the wrong plectra for one finger (1 of the 2 ring finger plectra on the index).

Shanghai Dunhuang make everything from the beginner's (overpriced) to masters'. The only black horn Shanghai Dunhuang one I saw, cost around US$200. I was very underwhelmed by its tone. Many of the Suzhou makers and the Beijing Xinhai sounded better than the Shanghai beginner one..so i couldn't understand why the Shanghai one was so expensive.

The Shanghai Dunhuang 561M with white bone fret and bone carved peony with oxhorn pegs, actually sounded very decent. It was a great instrument - average build quality but very good sound to me anyway. I would be happy with this one. It cost around US$400. Not so happy lol. That is probably the lowest grade Shanghai Dunhuang I would dare settle for ...bearing in mind that I am a newbie at the pipa too - the lesser Shanghai models really were outclassed. Mine is nothing special - it cost £34 - I can't read the name, which is just stamped on but it sounded better than the Shanghai model which had warped cut frets and very poor intonation and way more. Probably the best £34 I've spent......

In any case, Shanghai Dunhuang nails should be easy to find. I'm going through tape/plaster like crazy. I wonder if I can go to Accident and Emergency and ask for a few rolls because my nails have come off?

I made a 66mb recording of the sound of my pipa but I have no idea how to load up such a large file.


and the three on the left

[edcat7]

Having bought a load of different guitar picks in case I lose my liuqin picks there are clear differences. The more pointy the pick the more brighter the tone

[edcat7]

Does anyone know the diference in sound between steel and silver strings?

[xindi]

about HK$500 lol

[xindi]

Here you go Jetz:

www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-Dunhuang-Redwood-Pipa-P016-/260906360171?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbf3b1d6b

Anygood? Well within a student budget ... just stop eating for a month

Not sure how well fretted pick instruments compare with the pipa....the pipa strings (even steel) are way more flexible than most steel steel instruments (like the liuqin or ruan or guitar).

One reason why I love the pipa, is that it is so fun bending notes - the string can stretch sideways about 1.5cm!@ You get some fantastic wacky bending orientalesque decorations this way. My guess is that 'sharper picks' for pipa nails are simply not refined enough - the right sided cheaper plectra are really really sharp - compared to a liuqin pick - the edge of these picks are more similar to the higher quality Shanghai Dunhuang plectra on the left....

[xindi]

and if you hold off food for a term, the proceeds buy this one:

www.ebay.com/itm/Master-Made-Chinese-Pipa-Lute-/250430087619?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a4ecbe1c3

[jetz320]

Yes my white pipa is almost identical to the Dunhuang one physically in appearance, just instead of the rose it has the dragon carving. I want to buy a rosewood one similar to the one you showed the next time I go to Beijing. They're really nice, can't wait to actually test one out!

[xindi]

This one sounds the same quality ...but maybe not as pretty. They sell this one from the SoundofAsia.com website at a very good price. After postage, it still seems very good value from Carol's site, compared to the risk of breaking if you fly with one on the plane.

You should be really happy just trying out the different pipas in Beijing - there is such a huge selection. Make sure you try the Suzhou made rosewood ones too. Rosewood grows better in the south

Yes you are right - the dragon carving is much more interesting. I get fed up of seeing those rose carvings from turnips on dinner plates.

I see Eastfelicity on the Ebay site is selling secondhand pipas too - with the older 24 fret style, instead of 30 fret post-cultural revolution standard. She has a very pretty one with white frets ... but those are just plastic. Still, hers are very cheap for anyone wanting a basic pipa to learn.

[edcat7]

Xindi, don't knock those rose carvings from carrot (Chinese carrots are huge) ....until you've seen mine. I once super-glued 3 of those carrots together to make a dragon....only to have it's head bitten-off by a customer

[xindi]

I knew it!

I should never have tried to eat those carrot/turnip rossette things. No wonder they tasted inedible with the amount of superglue you use!!!

Any musical instrument with a rosette or double happiness symbol I can live without.

This one from the Soundofasia gets my vote for one of the more original: no scratchy plexiglass clear pipas - original copy of a Tang Dynasty 5 string:

[xindi]

More pipa images - this one is nice, but I'm not sure about that rosette....like...it's really not big enough now, is it??



Any bigger though...heads will roll...

This one is good enough for the Mulan Pipa Concerto lead - nice and plain, classical design with nothing fancy...except
that $@% rosette:



But they don't make them like they used to: Tang Dynasty -