using a microphone to record dizi music

[Blue]

In the interest of not letting certain threads from becoming too long-winded and de-focused, maybe we should start a new thread: what are people's experience trying to record dizi music with their computer. Do they end up having files who sound sounds extremely tinny and distorted thanks to horrible laptop speakers?

[edcat7]

When second-hand values drop I'd like to eventually get an Olympus Ls-11. Then I'll be able to produce high-quality cd recordings to sell. That is a long way off...thankfully.

[George]

Hi allentchang,
Laptop speakers will only affect playback, not recording quality.

There's some useful info on recording flutes at www.recordingmag.com/resources/resourceDetail/202.html. The microphone inputs built in to computers can't take mics made for recording music, so the easiest way to get a decent recording into a laptop might be to use a USB microphone like those made by Blue. Otherwise you could consider getting a miniaturised microphone designed to be attached to woodwind instruments, like Yamaha's MC7, as well as a preamp and perhaps a better quality analogue-to-digital converter than the ultra-cheap one most computers have. For the best possible solo recording, you'd usually use a matched pair of microphones in order to get a proper stereo image.

[xindi]

I'm clueless about this ...still trying to work it out.

What happens when the microphone isn't loud enough, even with the loudest volume settings on the record?

[George]

Hi xindi, are you using a computer microphone with a 3.5mm mini-jack? If so, a preamp intended for normal microphones won't work, so I'm afraid all you can do is to play closer to it .

You might think about getting a USB microphone instead. I can really recommend the Blue Yeti, which is a stereo mic that plugs straight into the computer without requiring a preamp, phantom power or expensive sound-card. If you want 24-bit/96kHz audio you'll need the Yeti Pro, but the basic Yeti is fine for recording yourself while practising.

[xindi]

Oops...spot on....I am definitely clueless about this stuff....

Yes my $78 laptop mic isnt very good at all. I just pick up my breathing.

I asked a music shop and they recomended I get a clip on transducer, wired to a setup like a box with phantoms which powered the transducer, which was connected through a jackplug, and then supposedly, I could feed the box guts output into my minidisc recorder. All that would cost a mere $300...!

All I could do was shrug helplessly and tell him it was a but overkill to make a recording of 'Three blind mice'.

He wasn't very nice to me afterwards and ripped me off buying a microphone, with a 3 pin plug which I don't know what to plug into (unless I buy the black Star wars phantom box thing).

He described it all much better and made me want to buy everything he mentioned, he was that impressive. Well maybe the world can live happily without hearing me :-)

[George]

A sad tale .

That 3-pin plug is an XLR connector, which is normal for non-computer microphones. It's probably either a dynamic or a condenser mic - do you know which? If it's dynamic then the gizmo (a.k.a. audio interface) required to pipe it into your computer can be a bit cheaper, because it won't need phantom power.

[xindi]

Hi George,

Yes - funny enough, I just uncovered the box, and it is an XLR connector!

I was a bit miffed by the shopkeeper, but then again, they were just in it for the money. It is a dynamic mic, but it just isn't picking very much up. I can turn the record levels to 100 and all I'm getting is buzzing and background noise, with a barely audible sound.

The audio interface thing really confuses me too. I've been trying to read up on it last night....but I'm confused about transducers; magnetic pick-ups vs mic's.

The handheld digital one press things seem better for the non-technologically minded like me...from the clips others have loaded, they seem great (except, that nothing I have will interface with my Mac OSX which is outdated....

[davidmdahl]

I just record into a Sony flash recorder using a good microphone and later upload the recordings to my computer via USB. Years ago, I had a Soundblaster audio interface that had a 1/4" plug input for a conventional microphone, and it worked reasonably well. Now I think the usual way to go is a USB audio interface.

If your microphone is not picking up enough, your computer's audio interface may not be adequate. However it might be worth checking the microphone with some known good equipment back at the dealer who sold you the microphone. If it works there, you know that some sort of preamp will be necessary. For home recording, a mixer might be a good way to go. I can't imagine recording without a mixer.

A transducer is similar to a microphone, but is used in contact with vibrating surfaces, such as an acoustic guitar. I have transducers installed in several of my Vietnamese instruments. A electromagnetic pickup is used in an electric guitar, and picks up the movement of certain types of metal strings as the magnetic field is disturbed. A microphone picks up vibrations in the air.

Best wishes,

David

[George]

I've replied by private message, but should have added that xindi's SM57 was designed to sit close to a fairly loud sound source - usually less than a foot away, and never more than a few feet. The noise may be due to the preamp in xindi's recorder being worked too hard to amplify a weak signal from the mic. Though they're said to work well for flutes, that must mean that the result is attractive rather than accurate, because SM57s aren't very accurate over 10kHz. In studios they're mostly used for mic'ing drums, electric guitar amps and, to a lesser extent, singers. They're also unidirectional, and so are strictly for one sound source at a time.

[xindi]

Many thanks guys -

it's taken me ages to read and soak in all the useful information you've given. If anything, I've realised I'm too stupid to own a microphone

That's interesting about the magnetic transducer. I presume, since it is sensitive to the string vibrations, it will not pick up the clickety clackety noise of the fingers or nails touching the strings?

Between a magnetic pickup vs air transducer - which one is more preferable for a flute, and which for a stringed guitar or instrument?

My recorder is not very advanced (well okay..I'm backward! I use minidisc!)

I have a mic, which I need to work out how to connect to something to record - mostly for practice, so that I can listen to what I'm playing more objectively.

Thanks for all the help ... I'll get there...eventually..

[davidmdahl]

Hello Xindi,

I think that you are mixing up some terminology. As I understand it, a transducer is a special kind of microphone that is designed to be in contact with a vibrating surface, so you would attach it to a sound board, such as on a guitar body, a piano, harp, or maybe a violin. A electromagnetic pickup works in proximity to metal strings that vibrate. It would not pick up vibrations from a resonating body. There are no strings at all on a flute, so a electromagnetic pickup would be of no use. The strings on an acoustic guitar are of the sort that do not work with an electromagnetic pickup, and usually the guitarist wants an acoustic sound anyway, so that's why an acoustic guitar uses transducer pickups installed on the inner surfaces of the body.

Here is a transducer:
www.bluestarmusic.com/KK-Sound-Big-Twin-External-GuitarInstrument-PickupJack-P385.aspx

Here is a electromagnetic pickup:
www.bluestarmusic.com/Seymour-Duncan-Antiquity-II-Surf-Pickup-for-Strat-Guitars-Aged-White-P1645.aspx

Here is a microphone:
www.bluestarmusic.com/KK-Sound-Silver-Bullet-Microphone-Pickup-with-14-Out-P431.aspx

By the way, I liked using a minidisc recorder, and would still use it if I could get new rechargable batteries for it. The trouble with proprietary batteries is that the devices are essentially unusable once batteries are no longer available.

Best wishes,

David

[George]

Yes, the Silver Bullet is very popular with flutists.

The problem (for me) with the whole business of audio recording isn't its complexity - that'd be fine if it were interesting enough for the research to be fun - but its combination of complexity and dullness. And audio software is far worse.

[davidmdahl]

I have used my silver bullet with my flute, erhu, and once even with my hulusi. It works well in all those situations. The one time it wasn't working well for some colleages, they had forgotten to hook in the preamp box. <g>

I agree with you about recording and sound technology. I would much rather just play the music. Unfortunately if the audience cannot hear the music properly, a lot of work has gone to waste. I much prefer gigs with competent sound people.

Best wishes,

David

[xindi]

Thanks for clarifying.....I'm such a numptie duh'!

Of course ...silver flutes can't vibrate by angstroms to make any meaningful magnetic vibrations...firstly because silver isn't magnetic and that would be quite some magnet to pick up such small vibrations if it could lol.

The Seymour Duncan looks really nice. Would that work for a pipa?

I'm hooked on the pipa, although I really should sort my flute recording out ... I need to improve my phrasing and if I can get some decent recordings, I won't have to torture others with my practice all the time.

Are you sure you can't get replacement batteries for your minidisc? Depending on what brand it is - I see Ni-Mh gumstick batteries everywhere when I travel the Far East. You can get it here too:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HQRP-Battery-fits-Sharp-ADN55BT-AD-N55BT-Mini-Disc-MP3-/260742544635?pt=Other_MP3_Player_Accessories&hash=item3cb5777cfb

They work on most Sony and Sharp mini-disc players. I prefer the original Sharp ones - rechargeable 1000x. Equally, mine have a AAA battery compartment, which is really handy for extra power. The sonic quality I get from them is just miles better than my iPod.

Anyhows - that's a lot to take in. I'd like to *try* and get this Shure SM57 working. Just need to work out how without going potty.

[George]

True, David.

Xindi, I have the solution to all your problems, as long as you're willing to use your computer (or some other gadget with USB input) for recording. The basic, non-Pro Yeti works on MacOS X 10.4, and has a built-in headphone output. It's £80. It won't be perfect for either dizi or pipa, but it is extremely versatile and should be more than OK for anything.

[davidmdahl]

I would use a transducer like the K&K Big Twin in the first link of my post for a pipa. I suppose if you wanted to have some fun, you could try an electromagnetic (EM) pickup with the right sort of strings. I don't think standard pipa strings will work with a EM pickup. I wouldn't do that on an expensive pipa though.

If you are still having trouble with your SM57, test it, cable and all, on some known good sound equipment. A lot of mic problems are due to the cable. Take it where you bought it.

Regarding minidisc recorder batteries, I have had mostly bad experiences with aftermarket batteries, and just about given up on them. Now I am using a Sony PCM-M10 that uses AA batteries, and makes excellent recordings, and better recordings with an external microphone.

Best wishes,

David

[xindi]

Hi George,

Wow - that sounds tempting....! But I don't know how to record music onto the computer :~(

I record onto mini-disc - but my mini-disc player, doesn't have a USB cable.

The thing about trying to record, is that I'm finding I am discovering just how fast technology moves (well..
just how behind technology I am). I would have to find out how to record on my laptop - not ideal for
recording out in the woods/lake where I play. My minidisc solution is my ideal way.

I'm starting to think, maybe a Zoom H model wouldn't be bad. At least I can play it back through my hi-fi,
and record it onto minidisc.

I just don't know ... I think I'll wait until I get to figure out what I should be doing with the Shure SM57 before I throw more into technology. Flutes ... I don't mind - they never go out of fashion.

Thanks for the kind offer though ... !

[xindi]

Mar 1, 2012 8:08:24 GMT davidmdahl said:

I would use a transducer like the K&K Big Twin in the first link of my post for a pipa. I suppose if you wanted to have some fun, you could try an electromagnetic (EM) pickup with the right sort of strings. I don't think standard pipa strings will work with a EM pickup. I wouldn't do that on an expensive pipa though.

That one looks like it could do a guzheng and pipa?

Would EM pickups not work with steel pipa strings? My pipa cost £34 ...I know I know...it's too expensive to mess with lol.

If you are still having trouble with your SM57, test it, cable and all, on some known good sound equipment. A lot of mic problems are due to the cable. Take it where you bought it.

I think this is probably the source of all my problems (and agro). It was all bought new - and I didn't know how to use it..everytime I used to go back, I just got belittled as if I was incredibly thick (well so what if I didn't know which end of the microphone was up?! But that's besides the point! I'm a customer ). I just don't go back anymore.

This is the only 'sound' equipment I have for mic'g. Which is probably why I've failed at the first hurdle of recording. It was a surprise to me that the microphone didn't come with the cable. A bigger surprise when I bought the cable, to find that it didn't plug into anything I had. There should be a health warning on mics' indicating that they do not just plug into any 3.5mm jack recording device and go.

Maybe the Zoom or the Olympus LS11 is the way to go for the non-technically minded like me.....

PS - Hong Kong, Japan and China (but watch out in China..) still sells original Sony gumstick batteries like the ones you need for the Sony minidiscs.....

[George]

No problem xindi .

[davidmdahl]

The Shure SM57 is a venerable microphone for live sound, but it is not a good choice for recording into a minidisc deck. It is probably possible to get it to work using a preamp or mixer, but for simplicity's sake, you should be able to get a good quality microphone with the appropriate jack and leave all of this hassle behind you. There are some Sony ECM microphones for digital recorders in a variety of price ranges that would work beautifully. Just search for Sony Digital Microphone. I hesitate to recommend any one in particular. I have one that four years ago cost $200, but that might be out of your price range. Anyway, a microphone designed for use on a digital recorder is going to be more convenient than a mic used for live sound.

Easiest of all will be a digital recorder with an inbuilt microphone.

Best wishes,

David

[George]

My experience has been that the most important thing to get right is your acoustic, since a poor acoustic mocks the player's musicality in a way that a thin recording doesn't. Outdoors is far better than a bad room.

After that comes the precise positioning of your microphone, and the accuracy with which you can hear what's going into your recorder. In other words, having isolating monitor headphones (and a microphone stand!) is more important than having good mics.

[davidmdahl]

In my experience, when recording, everything matters. Yes, the acoustics of the room is important, as is the microphone(s), mixer, placement, cables, recorder settings, and everything in between. That is part of what makes sound so challenging. You can have a $20,000 (or fill in the blank) system, but it can all be done in by a bad cable or poorly set controls.

For those of us who wrestle with recording, it is simply a challenge to work through and find what works best. At at gig I am usually too busy with the music to fuss with the sound and recording gear. I prefer to get someone else to handle it whenever possible. Sometimes I get lucky at a venue and have a good sound engineer and crew.

There is a lot of information on the Internet on sound and recording.

Best wishes,

David