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Post by phillipr on Dec 16, 2011 2:24:19 GMT
I'm wondering what people think of the dizi and xiao put out by Carrot Music. How do they compare to flute by the likes of Dong Zue Hua and other makers?
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Post by edcat7 on Dec 16, 2011 6:03:14 GMT
Hi Plillip
I've got and currently using the dearest dizi from Carrot (which isn't really that dear). Although there's Carrot stamped on the dizi it's made by XB. The sound is Ok, the higher octaves quite easily playable and most importantly my teacher loves it so much he's got a similar one from the Shanghai Expo.
I think at your standard you would be happier with a concert grade dizi by XB or DXH sold by Eason. If you only get one, get the best. I can't comment on their xiao's as I don't play it.
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Post by phillipr on Dec 16, 2011 7:51:45 GMT
Thanks, Ed. I'd suspected that Carrot's dizi were made by XB, but it's nice to have confirmation. I was basing my suspicion primarily on bad pictures and attempting to see if the maker's mark on my dizi (from Carrot) matched the pictures on Eason's site. The one I bought from Carrot is a "professional" grade. I really like it. I wonder how much difference there actually is between the "professional" and "concert/performance" grades. My father-in-law picked up a few dizi for me the last time he was in Shanghai. They're all made by DXH, and I believe are all "professional" grade. Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to try them out yet because they're Christmas gifts. Funny story actually. He came down on Sunday, the day after my son was born. Handed them to me and said, "Don't open them till Christmas." It's been torture since then. So right now they're sitting in my closet in the same package they were in when DXH shipped them to him in Shanghai. Christmas can't come soon enough. Well, when the time comes I won't hesitate to order a couple of taylor made dizi from Carrot since they're made by XB. I'd love to get a Bass G, but since I hold the flute left-handed I need the bottom pinky hole on the opposite side as most people.
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Post by edcat7 on Dec 16, 2011 15:49:25 GMT
It's a BOY!!! Congratulations
Shanghai brings back fond...and sad memories. If you have the same DXH dizis as sold by Eason then you don't really need anything dearer. Eason has a video clip of D dizis and without telling which ones were which my teacher thinks the DXH sounded the best.
Before you use the dizis I would lightly coat the inside of the flute with almond oil. What dimo and how it's put on makes a huge difference to the sound quality. I'd use professional quality dimo.
As you probably know a dizi sounds best warmed up. My teacher covers all the holes and blows TKTKTK down the blowing hole.
Xindi would love you to get a Bass G!!!
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Post by phillipr on Dec 16, 2011 19:52:09 GMT
Thanks for the almond oil tip, Ed. I'l have to be sure and do that. My XB flute may have a slight crack in it. Either that or one of the grains of bamboo came out. The crack doesn't go all the way through. I want to keep such things from happening to my DXH flutes. I have a Bb flute made by XB as well. It does have a crack in it, which I've temporarily bandaged with some electrical tape.
Where do I find professional quality dimo? So far I've just been using whatever came with the flutes.
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Post by edcat7 on Dec 16, 2011 20:11:47 GMT
Professional quality dimo tends to be in a red package whilst standard dimo tends to be in a green package. You can see fibres in the dimo and these should be vertical to the dizi.
Two dizis with two cracks that,s....hmmmm...bad luck!
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Post by xindi on Dec 16, 2011 20:45:56 GMT
Haha. Like I need another lobotomy. Professional dimo comes in all kinds of disguises! Oh no...you didn't like the thin green bamboo type I gave you? :eek: That's the only one I use these days sob.
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Post by xindi on Dec 16, 2011 20:54:38 GMT
I'm wondering what people think of the dizi and xiao put out by Carrot Music. How do they compare to flute by the likes of Dong Zue Hua and other makers? I've only heard Ed's ...they are reasonable and very good for the price, but quality control is very variable (as with most things made in the mainland). Not sure about the xiao flutes, however I've never seen two xiao flutes cut perfectly alike; the bamboo selected also differs (some have the notched ring areas of the bamboo in very awkward fingering positions); some have assymetrical notches which sound better than symmetrical cut notches; others are slightly longer by 1-3cm or thicker, for the same key = all due to the natural variation of the bamboo worked on. Ordering by the internet, you could get an average one; a complete lemon, but probably not a brilliant one, unless you pay a premium. I'd worry that with your many years experience of flute playing, you'd be underwhelmed by the tonal colour range of the XBs. I'd definitely go to a retailer who has flute playing experience - they would have to be really evil to sell a duff dizi or xiao, rather than just commercially ignorant. Guess I believe people don't tend to set out to rip others off when it comes to a specialist niche market like making flutes, but commercial internet shops do lol)
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Post by edcat7 on Dec 16, 2011 23:06:23 GMT
I think Allen has reviewed xiao's from Carrot on an earlier thread and the review wasn't too favourable. Although I'm using a D from Carrot I have plenty of other D dizis; I regret buying rosewood dizis. SW from Eason warned me that rosewood dizis looked better than they sounded and stupid me ignored his advice.
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Post by phillipr on Dec 17, 2011 9:00:56 GMT
Thanks for the remarks, xindi and edcat. They've helped me out quite a bit. I know I like XB's flutes because I currently play a C and Bb by him. They are the "professional" grade. I wonder how much better the "performance" grade is.
Bamboo is certainly a fickle plant to choose to make flutes out of. Since diameter, circumference and wall-thickness all vary according to the plant, each flute truly is a work of art (when made well at least).
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Post by xindi on Dec 17, 2011 12:21:09 GMT
Hi Phillip,
I find that when I discover a great flute, I think it's the best thing since sliced bread ... until I discover an even better one lol.
Actually, my favourite playing flutes are the average/moderate quality ones - ones that don't induce the feeling that I might destroy the "Precious" by my outdoor playing antics. Listeners don't pick out the fine nuances which a flute player can - in that respect, they are more likely to hear a flute with a loud volume, than the subtle detailed tonal colour which comes with more expensive flutes....which also have more technically demanding embouchure (more undercut; often less rectangular in shape, requiring more embouchure precision).
I gave a friend my high pitched G dizi flute. It was a beginner flute - and the only flute of mine which she could get a note out of. She tried the performance grade ones, and found the embouchure control impossible. I suppose the performance grade is more focussed on tonal colour, detail and refined control...but it requires this embouchure to be in place first...which is why it's not usual for newcomers to the dizi to jump straight in and get the most expensive or perceived "best" dizi ... that would only lead to disappointment or giving it up. The historical Quantz book "On playing the flute" describes in brilliant technical detail, the very characteristics required for embouchure design of the baroque flute: this doesn't vary much from transverse flute to transverse flute. It's helped me understand what I need to look for when I hunt down a transverse flute.
Owning a few interesting reputed flutes, I think it's important to have an everyday flute, a bit like jeans and t-shirt, as well as two identical tonally consistent performance ones, if you're into performance (accidental di mo puncture can take several minutes to fix in between).
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Post by edcat7 on Dec 17, 2011 14:50:46 GMT
Phillip
If you are happy with your 'professional' grade dizi and you have a great Xmas present in the way of DXH dizis then you should look no further about 'performance' grade or even 'concert' grade dizis.
I have a performance D XB and a professional C XB and soon to come a concert D XB from Eason. There comes a point when enough is enough (so says my wife!)
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Post by phillipr on Dec 17, 2011 15:20:11 GMT
Phillip If you are happy with your 'professional' grade dizi and you have a great Xmas present in the way of DXH dizis then you should look no further about 'performance' grade or even 'concert' grade dizis. I have a performance D XB and a professional C XB and soon to come a concert D XB from Eason. There comes a point when enough is enough (so says my wife!) Hahahahaha!!! My wife would say the same about enough being enough! But according to her standards, 0 dizi is enough, 1 is too many, and my collection (though small) is certainly pushing extreme! Right now I'm really just gathering information for when I can get a Bass dizi in G and/or A. I was finding out what other's think of the dizi by Carrot Music, not realizing that they were XB's dizi. The only reason I'm going with them is that they're the only company I know that will make a left-handed Bass dizi. But my next dizi purchase is a ways down the road. ;D
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Post by phillipr on Dec 17, 2011 15:24:25 GMT
Hi Phillip, I find that when I discover a great flute, I think it's the best thing since sliced bread ... until I discover an even better one lol. I'm the same way. The only problem is that I do it with Irish flutes. Obviously the price difference between a good Irish flute and a good dizi are huge! Even so, I've been through 4 or 5 Irish flutes in just under 20 years. I'm currently quite happy with the one I'm using now (made by a friend of mine, David Copley), but I've always aspired to purchase an instrument made by Sam Murray. That will probably not be happening any time soon. I'd also love to get a keyed low Bb flute made by Casey Burns, but again that won't be for some years still. What's the title of the book you mentioned? I'd love to have a look at it.
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Post by xindi on Dec 18, 2011 20:42:39 GMT
This one: It should be available from your local library. The introduction to flute playing at the start, is written in his era, and approaches it from a very practical and easy to understand way. I love the language he uses. There's parts where he expresses poetically in treatises, ideas such as: "You wanna be a flute player huh? Well don't give up the day job!" or "Why players who think they are very good, are really not" or "You always get empty flattery from uninformed audiences". The Copley flutes seem really cool. I know less of Sam Murray, but the import tarriffs for exotic (well, USA!) flutes to Yurop can be quite heavy. Casey Burns is very popular too - even over here. I think it's the Hammy flutes and McGee though which I love the sound off - particularly the McGee Perfected type which is way beyond the scope of affordable since he terminated his waiting list. The sound is almost the opposite of the typical dizi though. More like an agile xiao flute maybe...? Yeah - the low Bb flute .... I asked a maker why a low Bb and not low B, to which they replied, that the low B is usually a compromise or weakened due to manufacturing below its true fundamental (low D). The scarey thing about the low Bs tend to be the dreaded spidery Pipers' Grip for me. That's why I was surprised to discover some European low Bb makers who have calculated normal finger spans for theirs! Yeah Quantz.....His vernacular is very typical of the period. It makes me lament the dumbing down of our language.
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 19, 2011 4:34:35 GMT
The Copley flutes seem really cool. I know less of Sam Murray, but the import tarriffs for exotic (well, USA!) flutes to Yurop can be quite heavy. Casey Burns is very popular too - even over here. I think it's the Hammy flutes and McGee though which I love the sound off - particularly the McGee Perfected type which is way beyond the scope of affordable since he terminated his waiting list. The sound is almost the opposite of the typical dizi though. More like an agile xiao flute maybe...? My first Irish flute was from Casey. I drove up to his workshop in Kingston, Washington, and picked my favorite. I also had a Rod Cameron for a while. Now I have a keyed flute by Thomas Aebi (Switzerland). Sam Murray is on your side of the pond, in Ireland. Aren't you in the UK? I have not played his flutes, but his reputation is excellent. The best flute I have played on would be a tie between Michael Grinter and Chris Wilkes, but both are just about impossible to get now. Best wishes, David
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Post by phillipr on Dec 19, 2011 6:50:37 GMT
Dave Copley's flutes are certainly great, and I recommend them to any/everybody. However, he is a U.S. flute maker (although he's originally from England). Sam Murray's flutes are fantastic. If I could afford it, I'd own one or two of them. He is indeed an Irish flute maker. I believe he's currently in Belfast, but I'm not sure on that one. It's been quite some time since I've played a Casey Burns flute. I believe I've played one of his Bb flutes once (the one owned by John Skelton), but that's been awhile ago. They are indeed wonderful instruments, as are those made by Hammy Hamilton (a resident of Co. Cork). Actually I've recently discussed much of this on my blog: www.irishfluteobsession.blogspot.com .
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 19, 2011 19:40:14 GMT
According to the Murray Flutes website, Sean is apparently working with his father Sam. I wonder how much of the work Sam is doing now, or if the quality has changed.
When I started playing back in the 1990's, the most popular makers were Chris Wilkes in the UK and Patrick Olwell in the USA. Since then, the waiting lists for these makers have closed for all practical purposes, and there are other good makers all over the world. Unfortunately, the further away a maker, the more intriguing his instruments. <g> Thus, I have a flute from a Swiss maker, and would love one by an Austrailian (Grinter). Go figure.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by phillipr on Dec 20, 2011 14:19:55 GMT
Chris Wilkes and Patrick Olwell are still considered to be two of the best flute makers out there. I've never played a Wilkes flute, although I'd love to. I've played a number of Olwell flutes, and honestly don't like them very much. To quote a famous Irish flute player (who shall remain nameless), "They sound like they've been wrapped in a damp towel and played in a closet." To my ear they just don't reach that desired harsh, saxophone/trumpet-like tone that is so sought after by Irish musicians. Grinter flutes are very nice. Kevin Crawford, of Lunasa fame, plays Grinter flutes. A friend of mine, who is rather up and coming in the Irish music world, also plays Grinter flutes. I like them, but I have a hard time controlling them. This is primarily because I'm just not used to them. How did we get on the topic of Irish flutes to begin with? We should move this discussion over to my blog...
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Post by edcat7 on Jan 4, 2012 21:59:23 GMT
I've had my 'concert grade' D XB a while now and it's clearer, louder than my performance grade Carrot D. However I still think when 2 dizis are of similar quality the determining factor is the dimo. Some bright spark at XB thought it was a good idea to make it's concert grade dizi looking the same as it's cheaper brother. My professional quality dimo is a mixed bag, some are very fine, other's are not. Xindi uses great dimo, he probably gets them in bulk whilst on his travels. www.zhuyun.com
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Post by xindi on Jan 12, 2012 17:08:51 GMT
Phillip..Ive no Irish flute on my travels...out here, I getthe impression owing one is a massive massive expense compared to owning a dizi! ....and lo! The high quality dimo is no longer available I.ve been given a few other brands to try...one shop keeper says the yellower ones are better...more ripples along the texture. All I know is that with a professional grade flute, it deafens the hell out of everyone and me! With a hardwood dizi, I am not getting the top octave with the cheap dimo. If I loosen it up, the buzzing is like a wasp rasping inconsistently. Going to try the better dimo soon..... How does your new XB sound compared to dizi concert recordings by dizi players? I found the Carrot okay but it had a rather uninteresting embouchure but that, could be me. With winter, my embouchure is really acting up.
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