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Post by Blue on Oct 3, 2011 14:28:45 GMT
Where can I purchase a membrane-free flute WITHOUT a tuning joint? I know that carrot music sells membrane-free flutes with tuning joints, which I personally don't like because of inherent corrosion maintenance issues.
Scotch tape damages the flute's varnish and easily traps and accumulates humidity. Plus somehow the flute doesn't sound that good with scotch tape covered on the membrane hole compared to a xindi.
I know where to easily acquire a xindi without a tuning joint, and the xindi sounds nice and mellow even when pitched at alto D. But 11 holes is just simply impossible for me. A human hand only has ten fingers, and somehow you are expected to use the side of your hand to cover one of the holes. I'm gonna see if I could convince a xindi maker in central Taiwan to custom make a membrane free flute without so many holes . . . . . . . .
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Post by xindi on Oct 3, 2011 19:56:37 GMT
Do you mean a tranverse flute, or a vertical type flute (xiao?) You don't need a chinese dizi to play chinese music (although the character of the dizi intonation and colour is completely lost). If you don't like corrosion issues and membrane maintenance - you could try a western style flute. Here's one which I have for baroque music: The pitch is A=415Hz which is extremely pleasing for solo playing. There is no tuning joint as such, however it is a three piece flute - not cheap, but it is brilliant low maintenance: it never goes mouldy; it doesn't rust, and being composite, it is likely to last for ages. It is also fully chromatic - which means you can play music in any standard musical key, unlike the dizi. As far as dizi's go - I don't think I like the idea of a 'membrane free' dizi. If you are interested, you could always try a standard Irish/romantic keyed flute: These have a full-bodied deep rich tone (as required for Irish music). You can play dizi music on them too - a key of D is equivalent to an alto F dizi - the Irish flutes are much shorter than a alto F dizi due to the thicker walls. Oops - but this has a tenon. There are other 'delrin' plastic non-wood flutes which are very low maintenance: This one is a Rob Forbes one. The thing you will notice is that Irish flutes cost $$$ more than a bamboo dizi. The cheaper option, is to stick with the dizi, and gently oil the tuning tenon after swabbing the moisture out. Use recorder oil; almond oil; jasmine oil, or any kind of light wood oil that you have, just to stop the corrosion of the tuning joint. Once you get beyond 8 holes, it gets rather complicated. It makes sense to try a keyed flute. Unfortunately keyed flutes are rather expensive, and the keyed chinese flute never really took off. If you lose the membrane, you will find that the flute is rather dull or flat in intonation, compared to a proper dizi with membrane.
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Post by Blue on Oct 5, 2011 15:07:17 GMT
I use 針車油 (sewing machine oil) to stop the corrosion and remove a lot of that awful green rust in the process. There's also something similar to Brasso (銅油), which will make the metal tuning tenon look shinny, but the smell is just poisonous because of those volatile solvents.
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Post by xindi on Oct 6, 2011 18:50:17 GMT
I found a bottle of almond oil, selling around 250ml for £2.50. It's a bit cheaper than the recorder oil, or jasmine oil. I hear that it can denature (like most fruit oils), although I tend to wipe it on the lip plate area, just to prevent it from drying out too quickly.
Any luck with the Taiwanese flute maker request?
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Post by vinh on Oct 7, 2011 11:56:14 GMT
Below is the link to CARROT-MUSIC site that you can order your tailor made dizi. You can choose bamboo type, no join, carving style, color... and you can tell them that you do not want to have membrane hole too: www.carrotmusic.com/servlet/the-21/Model-102-Tailor-made/DetailBy the way, I use to cover the membrane hole with a dizi membrane and rolling on it with a food wrapping plastic of about 1 foot long. No need to use glue or scotch tape. This works good for very long time. The loose membrane installation as in Carrot-Music instruction gives too much vibration. A little vibration of just to give some feeling is good for me. Thus I still want to have membrane hole.
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Post by xindi on Oct 8, 2011 2:49:41 GMT
Vinh -
I wish I could be more enthusiastic about Carrotmusic.
Firstly, their illusion of 'choice', confuses newcomers to dizi playing, that these are actually hand-made with a specific artisanal traditional or handed down skills, from families of flute makers.
They are a commercial outfit, who will sell any kind of cheap dizi, and decorate or embellish it as you choose. Fundamentally, the craft and skill that goes into cutting their 'Carrot' branded flutes is very dubious and looks more like a machine attempt.
Now perhaps it's too much to ask for the difference between a hand-made flute, like a DXH; Wang, or Bao family flute, versus a generic 'Carrot' flute. However when I checked out their double bass dizi flutes, the construction was standard (and rather flaky). For £230, it isn't cheap either. Yes they do customisation, like decorations, but fundamentally, they order no difference in say, embouchure cuts (whereas Allen's reports of Fandizhi, indicates that he does).
Adding calligraphy; oxhorn; clear or red binding tape, and red tassles doesn't make a flute play any better for me although there's no doubt that these features can be attractive.
I prefer supporting indie and independent flutemakers, rather than large companies, who have an layered infrastructure of business and marketing, which will be recouped through the cost of selling their generic machined flutes to the public, in different fruit flavours. Where they do score well is that they make dizi flutes accessible to a wider range of people, than perhaps would be available.
I put a finger through my low F di mo twice in a week. These longer flutes are really tricky to handle. I can't imagine how such low flutes with double di mo holes, would survive in my hands.
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Post by Blue on Oct 8, 2011 13:06:46 GMT
I did purchase a membrane-free flute tuned in alto-C from Carrotmusic last year, and I was pretty disappointed. For some reason, certain notes such as low so and mid-so (.5 and 5) sounded lackluster.
If one includes shipping to Taiwan, ordering a custom made flute from fandizhi is cheaper for me. Now what I need to see is if fandizhi can sucessfully make adjustments to fit my flute blowing habits (and thereby earning a loyal customer). On his message board, I do know that he honored someone's request for no membrane-hole.
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Post by xindi on Oct 8, 2011 14:21:28 GMT
I suppose Fandizhi doesn't speak/write English does he? It's funny how matching a flute player with flute goes. Here in the UK, manufacturers have no hesitation in suggesting that it is the flute player's fault, and that he should improve his skills. I found in China, most flute makers were more humble: when they let me test out their flutes, they were very supportive, and would be thrilled, just being able to find a potential customer, who could play 'Autumn Reverie' (most of the flute makers are that old, that they will remember this classic, whereas the newer/younger sales people, just want the latest melody hit by Fan Vicky Zhaoor Aloys Chen). It's a shame Googlechrome isn't out for Apple - I miss the web translations (direct) of those forums. What are other people on the chinese forum saying about Fandizhi flutes? I'm still looking for another low G flute ...
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Post by Blue on Oct 8, 2011 15:35:43 GMT
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Post by xindi on Oct 8, 2011 16:29:03 GMT
Hey - wow. How did you find Tony Dixon's flutes? They're used a lot by amateurs in sessions (a session is the name of an Irish ensemble, when they meet to have a jig, or small performance set, usually in a pub). I was going to get one a while ago but never got around to it. Basically, they are very competent: they are not the best in terms of plastic Irish flutes nor plastic Irish whistles, but they sit right in the middle of the market. They are good value, and they produce a thick rich sound. They won't hurt your ears, and I think they would be an excellent choice for a cheap plastic alternative to an expensive bamboo crack, for outdoor practice. When I tried one, I found that it did not articulate as clear as I would like. I don't know the Irish flute method at all, but I tend to 'tongue' more, to produce articulation. In Irish flute practice, players tend to use the back of their throat to produce the music more. But I use Irish flutes to dizi practice anyway, since they are easier (and lower volume). In the western music notation, you would need either an 'E' key or Eb key flute to match the pitch of a chinese alto C dizi. I've never seen a E key Irish flute, but they do make Eb keys. Generally most Irish flute players recommend starting with a key of D flute (F sharp; C sharp) which covers the majority of session music. This is equivalent to the chinese alto F flute. Their system of musical pitch notation is very different; you tend to get Key of D; Eb, F (piccolo/high pitch); Bb (piccolo/high pitch) in the modern ones. Many older Irish flutes, are also pitched different from A=440Hz, so Tony Dixon flutes are a good choice. I hope postage is cheaper to Taiwan from Ireland than it is from Taiwan to Ireland If not, let me know and I'll see if I can help out.
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Post by Flolei on Oct 11, 2011 12:34:28 GMT
Hi, everybody! I signed in for a long time and read regularly all your posts, but I didn't post any comment before. Firstly, let me introduce myself: I play the flute in my free time for about 20 years (I made a 10 years pause when I was too busy with my job and little family). First I played the western recorder and the western transverse flute, but now I play the dizi about 18 months. I play about one hour a day. I play also the xiao and the bawu, and try to play a little xun. I’m very passionate, really in love with Chinese traditional music in general and with Chinese woodwinds. I’m bilingual French/Slovene, but I’m not very good in English. So, I apologize for the language mistakes you will find in my comments. I know Carrot music for about 15 months. I don’t know exactly how they do business, but it seems to me that they actually deal with a concrete woodwinds factory (my first flute - which is by my parents - was not signed by Carrot but by a concrete maker or flute factory). I think they have a deal with a maker who accepts to sign the flutes as Carrot, but the flutes (I have 3 ones of them) seem really to come all from the same woodwind factory. I really don’t think they decorate cheap flutes from different factories. I would rather say they don’t do anything but selling. For the « tailor-made » series I guess the factory provides this service, not Carrot music. But maybe you have some other information about Carrot music’s way to make business, maybe I’m wrong. Anyway, what about the flutes I bought from Carrot music ? I have two qudies from the « professional series » (in C and D) and one in D from the « performance series ». I bought two ones in D to have one at home and one at the place I spend my holidays. After this, I bought also some other dizis from other sellers and makers- and of course in different tones (from Bb to E). The « professional » are not the best I have, but they are still very good, especially quite loud and well-tuned. Maybe the lowest notes are not so « full » (deep), but the highest are really easy to reach. They are still flutes I play with feeling of safety and pleasure. The « performance » one is really better than the other. Louder, well-tuned easy to play, with full lowest notes. Maybe the highest notes (5 and 6 from the 3rd octave) aren’t as light they could be, but it seems to be quite normal for such a thick flute (diameter: 2,5 cm). Because it is a subjective feed-back, I post here a sample. Firstly I play the whole scale from A3 to B5 and after the first time of the piece关山月; (firstly I played the scale up and down from A3 to B5 qnd the whole first part of the piece, but I had to cut some parts because of the size limit of the attachments on the forum; anyway you can hear all notes). Even if I like the dizi to "buzz", I put my dimo a little more "tight" in order to let you hear more the sound of the flute than the sound of the dimo! What is my conclusion? In theory I agree that it is better to support individual flute makers who have tradition, experience etc. But I think that some factories have very good employees/masters who really know how to tune a flute and to make beautiful instruments. They are also people with great talent and maybe we can say that there is no rule here. The flutist has to try the instrument and to make his opinion by himself. I bought 11 flutes. Four of them are already at the attic with other « shopping mistakes » I made in my life. The other ones - also the 3 ones from Carrot - are good, all different, and provide me a lot of pleasure. Note: I wouldn’t say the same about the xiaos from Carrot music. They are good-looking but very bad tuned, therefore for me not playable! With best musical regards, Flolei PS. I tried to post my attachment, but I don't know if I did it properly! Please, help me if you cannot hear it! Attachments:
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Post by Blue on Oct 11, 2011 14:09:54 GMT
Now that you mention about it, is it that "concert dizis" or dizis with larger diameters tend to be much louder than other types of dizis? That would explain the reason that the Dong Xue Hua dizi I recently purchased sounds particularly loud. It has a larger diameter compared to the other dizis I have, and I was told that it is a higher end dizi for performance playing. Sounds like my tastes are evolving towards quieter, mellower flutes, especially I'm finding myself increasingly liking my 8-hole root xiao pitched in A. It's just that my finger can't adjust to anything below Alto-C.
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Post by xindi on Oct 11, 2011 18:44:06 GMT
Salut Flolei, et bienvenue a ce petit coin du notre forum! Pas de probleme avec la langue ecrite - c'est beaucoup plus facile a comprendre votre que chez moi Thanks for uploading the clip - your articulation is lovely - it just adds more to the sound of the dizi flute. You must have spent some time with this flute. That's the kind of tempo I try to play at. Anything faster, I get a headache lol. It's uncanny how your conclusions mirror mine about Carrotmusic. I don't think they're terrible, but there is so much better out there ... it's just a shame that for us anglophone speakers, it can be a myriad of hit and misses to trawl through, before finally settling on an an ideal dizi flute. I didn't know about Carrot's xiao flutes, since I have only ever bought mine after trying. Recently, I found I could barely play any of them after leaving them unplayed for months. Now it's not the xiao flutes - I could play them before .... this makes it even harder to test an unknown flute for someone like me with suspect xiao embouchure skills! Anyway - good to see you here. That makes a few of us here who play Boehm western flute too Ahhh... your fingering problems with the 8 hole root xiao .... I have that problem with even 6 hole xiao flutes. The technique for holding is called 'piper's grip' - the Irish flute method is very similar to the chinese xiao flute or any long flute fingering, where you use the middle of the finger joints, rather than the tips, to close the hole for one hand (rarely two hands in chinese xiao flutes). I'm not a fan of this method - it looks like I am playing with spade hammers on my hands and it is not very pretty to watch. Besides that, I'm more likely to only partially cover a hole, rather than completely cover it, leading to intonation problems. Now the diameters and 'loudness' issue: all bamboo (natural), has varying diameters - there is no stock standard, so a specific length of bamboo, should always be individually tuned, to match that strip of bamboo. This is one reason why I tend not to like 'machined dizi flutes' like Carrot music. Fandizhi - who individually adjusts his flutes, and 'voices' them, however is ideal as a flute maker. This is the way flutes should be made imho. The loudness of a flute depends not only on the bore (large diameter) - it's a product of the headjoint, tone hole sizes, and the embouchure cut too. Concert dizis are generally 'tuned' for volume rather than intonation - the undercut in the embouchure (slightly wider towards the body of the hole, rather the headjoint) is better for starter players, and the wood should be cut inwards. A thick head joint, will produce a 'dull' sound, whereas a 'thin walled' bamboo headjoint, will offer a louder resonant sound, however if you change the materials, then this idea does not hold. Equally, larger tone holes for your fingers, increase volume, since there is more air escapement through larger tone holes. The problems this creates .... is that you can only increase the size of the tone holes, before the hole becomes too difficult to cover, or when the tone becomes so altered (flat), that it becomes unusable to play in tune. Good embouchure holes are more elliptical than perfectly circular: some are almost rectangular in cut, or ovoid for easy blowing. I've found that trying to apply theoretical principles to figure out which flute to buy is just a big headache. It's just way easier to play the flute and then know! Allen - I wonder if your 8 hole xiao flute is a A flat (Ab) major flute. I can't think of why it has 8 holes, since A major has only 3 sharps.
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Post by Blue on Oct 11, 2011 23:57:00 GMT
Opps, let me rephrase my statement. I have no problem whatsoever with 8-hole dongxiao. What I do have problem with is 6-hole dizis starting from Bb and lower. The letter typed is "A" and not "Ab." The reason for the 8 holes (seven in front, thumb on back) is that it is easier on the fingers than the more traditional 6 holes (5 in front, thumb on back). If you search carrotmusic or www.shoppingchinanow.com, they also seem to offer xiao pitched in A. I wonder how should I formulate your question to that flute maker in Taiwan because I'm not a true musician like you and have difficulty translating certain musical terminology from English to Chinese and vice versa. I've been very tempted to ask you how many thousands of dollars you have spent on flutes, and where you got the budget to do so, Xindi.
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Post by Blue on Oct 12, 2011 0:03:12 GMT
So is tenor Eb on an Irish flute equivalent to an alto-C on a dizi? Would I encounter piper's grip necessity issues for a tenor Eb? (I don't have issues fingering with alto-C dizi, but I do find Bb to be an uncomfortable stretch.
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Post by davidmdahl on Oct 12, 2011 5:10:20 GMT
So is tenor Eb on an Irish flute equivalent to an alto-C on a dizi? I don't quite understand how an Eb Irish flute is equivalent to a C dizi. A "C" dizi is pitched the same as a "G" flute. An Eb flute is pitched the same as an Ab dizi. Am I misunderstanding something? Best wishes, David
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Post by xindi on Oct 12, 2011 20:08:30 GMT
Opps, let me rephrase my statement. I have no problem whatsoever with 8-hole dongxiao. What I do have problem with is 6-hole dizis starting from Bb and lower. Ahhh...do you mean that the finger stretch is too uncomfortable this way, for the bottom 3 notes? I see this, and it makes sense for ergonomics. Musically, there is another reason. To go from Doh (5) Ray (6) Me (7) Fa (4) So (3) La (2) Te (1) Doh (5.) only requires 6 holes: the 7th note is produced by no holes at all. Moving from Doh, Ray, Me ... represents moving up a note by exactly 1 note. So if you have 8 holes, like in an A hole flute, it runs So... La ..Te.. Doh ..Ray.. Me.. Fa.. So But this scale only requires 6 holes: where do the extra 2 come in? An 8 hole flute, introduces 2 extra holes, which add up to 1 note: that is - there are two semi-tones (half-notes) which are included. So the scale actually runs: So... So (+ 1/2) ... La... Te .. Doh...Doh + 1/2 ...Ray... Me ... Fa... So For an Eb flute, this is usually the La (Bb or A#) and Ray (Eb or D#) notes which can make these half-notes, which explains why you would need to cover two holes with two fingers, to move up So ---> La. Stick to chinese jian pu! He may not make any sense of the western system, and it may only confuse things. It won't take long to learn the basis of reading western treble clef music. I'm definitely no true musician either. I just play for fun! Haha. It's because I am unbelievably loaded and filthy rich you would not believe! Sigh. Reality is, I travel in China a lot. I won't pay more than US$50 for a flute unless it's really special. My expensive D dizi (around US$300 was a lot for me. Especially since I cracked it. Simple solution - just stop eating, and you'll be able to buy as many flutes as you like
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Post by xindi on Jan 29, 2012 20:49:40 GMT
That's all I've got with me at the moment Allen - Top to bottom: - The Francois De Villiers' plastic xiao type (quenacho) flute in D for outdoors Bao flute in C Bao flute in E (ho hum!) Some strange maker's flute in a hardwood in D (dimo problems without er jiao...) Stanesby copy in baroque A=415Hz tuning for night time playing
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Post by Blue on Jan 30, 2012 14:49:46 GMT
"Maestro Hsin-ti: Is that really all you got?" asks a very skeptical and underwhelmed Allen. Then you should have a better idea of my problem of trying to get rid of some of my dizis . . . . . . I'm considering donating to charity for my high school Orphanage Club rather than to be an Imelda Marcos. Imagine how worse my problem would be if a department store stocked flutes on the first floor instead of women's cosmetics!
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Post by xindi on Jan 30, 2012 20:30:25 GMT
Yup - it's all I got. In this drawer Oh, you mean the other drawers too? Well, I recently increased my instrument repertoire, by adding a pipa, which is zapping about 2 hours a day, just trying to get to grips with lunzi. I'm sure it will work out (or I'll break a few fingers trying to will myself to). Well the problem with the mould/fungus, I finally worked it out. The building wall where I stay, is made of granite: the moisture seeps in, particularly after long rainy spells, and causes the internal humidity to rise. I only figured this out ... when I returned and found a mould like layer growing on my laptop bag! This is why I was getting mould on a xiao flute.....the static humidity... I was concerned about cracking, and removed the silica gel sachets...hey presto. ...the irony of the western hemisphere, is that it is bitterly cold out here (well errr, 3 degrees... not exactly favourablle dimo temperature...) so we do need to use lip balm outside, unlike you along the Tropic of Cancer, and still deal with humidity (or soaring energy/heat bills) inside, for those of us like me in Bumpkinsville Not sure kids appreciate quality dizi flutes as anything other than play swords to whack each other with...but I still think family and friends appreciate a personal instrument, even if they don't learn how to play with it. Next time if you wish, I can show you a department store .... One which I went to, had cut the price of their US$100 xiao flutes to a ridiculously low US$30. I couldn't believe it ...same models and makes as I had observed a year ago, just overstocked. I bet that's how Imelda did it. Yeah...that must be it....each time..."just one more" .... - "pair!"
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Post by Blue on Jan 30, 2012 23:30:15 GMT
I'll spare you the interrogation of the complete inventory of flutes in your other drawers then.
Sorry, I have to make a clarification of the Orphanage Club in my old high school. It basically is a club made of normal high school students who raise money to support local orphanages (http://www.orphanageclub.com/history.html) They usually sell used donated goods in a rummage sale (but I wonder if they would grossly underprice a black sandalwood dizi . . . .)
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Post by xindi on Feb 1, 2012 21:26:29 GMT
"It basically is a club made of normal high school students who raise money" What are the clubs with the other high school students like lol They would fight over black sandalwood ..being denser, or firmer, it would be the weapon of choice Anyway...you know it's cold when you have to turn on every single heater in the room; every lamp bulb to try and generate some extra heat,and then the oven, because it's still frriiggging' freezing. I'm going to have to go into hibernation early tonight...
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Post by Blue on Feb 2, 2012 14:50:06 GMT
Other clubs . . . . there's a robotics club who had a competition that I served as an alumnus judge. There's a forensics club who had a competition in which I served as a alumnus judge. There's a Japanese Tea Club, several foreign language honor societies, Abandoned Animal Rescue Foundation, Computer/Abacus Club, Amnesty International, Animanga, Archery Club, Board Games Club, Chinese Performing Arts Club, Computer Gaming Club, Current Events Discussion Club, The Filmmaker's Edge, Cycling Safety and Maintenence Club, the Glee Club, Golf Club, Green Energy Club, I Love Art Fashion, International Thespians Society, Investors of Tommorrow, Kendo Club, Key Club, Orphanage Club, PhotoOps, Psych Club, ROV Underwater Robotics Club, Rockers Union, Student Environmental Alliance, Taiwan Politics Club, TAS Beatbox Club, TAS Cancer Society, TAS Operation Smile, TAS Red Cross Club, TAS Math Team, Ultimate Frisbee Club, Video Gaming Club, Wish4Kids, and World Vision.
43 of the 216 seniors are enrolled in the full IB Diploma Program. 262 students in grades 11-12 wrote 522 International Baccalureate examinations of which 82% had scores of 5,6,or7. 421 students in grades 9-12 wrote 953 Advanced Placement examinations with 89% scoring 3,4, or 5. 26 Advanced Placement (US college level courses) and 35 IB courses are offered. There are courses in Concert Choir, Jazz Ensemble, Opus Choir, Orchestra, String Orchestra, Symphonic Band, and Wind Ensemble.
I don't think they would have time to get into a fight given all of the above, and the fact that many of them have Tiger Moms.
Maybe you should go there and teach and head the Chinese Performing Arts Club . . . .
But it seems that we are really going off the topic with respect to dizis. Are you trying to discourage me from selling my Imelda Marcos collection of dizis?
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Post by xindi on Feb 2, 2012 21:58:01 GMT
I bet the Psych Club and the Ultimate Frisbee Club members had mutual members lol ... both with their heads peering into outer space Wow? You had a Forensics Club? Most of my school mates had a forensic history Except for one girl who was called Queen Kong, but she turned out to be an XY chromosome anyway ahem. Fights were normal in my school. Well, either fighting or being good at the races. I was good at the races These were watched, not by Tiger Moms, but by single moms. None of this afternoon tea stuff. They used to hurl prams at each other. They couldn't drive, because you needed to be over 18 to have a licence. The only performance clubs we had, was I learnt in later life, called 'primary school'. Our headmaster was arrested on terrorist charges. I was in shock. There was no way he could've been a terrorist, since terrorists wore balaclavas. He used to encourage me too - I was the only boy to play flute in our school - I had a real complex about it, because I had secretly wanted to play alto flute which was taller than I was :lol: Anyway, that was my primary school - way more illustrious and risqué than college. College didn't have clubs - just cliques. How long do you keep a flute before deciding to move it on?
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Post by Blue on Feb 3, 2012 0:51:08 GMT
So maybe you're a streetfighter as well?
Indirectly answering your last question, one tends to be quite obsessive in purchasing certain things when one-- such as yours truly-- lives alone in a near hermit-like existence without friends -- especially a best friend-- trying to talk some sense into that person.
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