Chinese Scale

[holdencaufield]

What notes are in the traditional Chinese musical scale(s). Specifically for erhu music. Are they identical to the various Western pentatonic scales?

As in, if I wanted to compose a piece of music in the traditional style, what notes would I be able to use? Would I be at liberty to choose any pentatonic scale? Or is the traditional Chinese scale different?

Thank you.

[sanmenxia]

I think the idea that Chinese scales or music are pentatonic is a common misconception. But having said that, I believe the guzheng is tuned in a 5 note scale (perhaps do not correspond to the equal tempered scale):

1 2 3 5 6 (scale degrees)

or

do re mi sol la (movable sol-fa, where do can be any pitch)

In the key of D:

D E Fsharp A B


There are pieces which does use this scale, eg jasmine flower (molihua), but I think many more uses a 7 note scale. To compose a Chinese sounding piece, I would think you need to listen to a lot of Chinese music and get a feel for the various melodic patterns.

[holdencaufield]

Thank you for the reply. I'm just a little confused as to whether or not *traditionally* the music has been pentatonic or otherwise. All sources seemed to point to the pentatonic structure until I came across this site.

Is this an acceptable scale? D E G A C

[sanmenxia]

Mar 22, 2011 3:42:42 GMT holdencaufield said:

Thank you for the reply. I'm just a little confused as to whether or not *traditionally* the music has been pentatonic or otherwise. All sources seemed to point to the pentatonic structure until I came across this site.

Is this an acceptable scale? D E G A C

If you start with C:

C D E G A

then that would match the intervals of D E Fsharp A B.

Starting with D (D E G A C) would have a different mode (I think) compared with C D E G A, ie a different sequence of intervals, even though both have the same notes.

See research.umbc.edu/eol/8/dujunco/index.html for one example of Chinese scales.

Previous discussion:
starvoid.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Guqin&action=display&thread=178

[dsouthwood]

Seems to me that what we call pentatonic scales simply use only five of the seven notes in the octave. I play the guzheng, the strings of which are tuned to only five notes, but there are many tunes that use the two missing notes; I need to bend the strings to get those notes. But most tunes use only the five notes--Celtic music is the same in that respect.

Regarding scales that begin with different notes, the old scales in Western music were called "modes" and are common in traditional folk music and church music. In fact, they are often called "church modes." Starting at a different note puts the semitones in different places and creates a different feeling for the piece. The Ionian mode is our major scale, and the Aeolian mode is our natural minor scale. Some of the other modes are downright weird, and might be used for only a few songs that require that eerie feeling.

The Wikipedia article on musical modes is at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode.

[xindi]

DS -

I guess that the pentatonic scale you use for the Gu Zheng, avails of the missing 2 notes, only as decorations in the music (northern or southern styles).

In the key of D:

D E F# A B

compared to the key of G:

D E G A B

The interval spacing is irregular. D E G A C does suggest listening and immersing oneself more into music would be the best way to start - to get a feel for the flavour of the music, rather than using a theoretical driven approach without context.

The pentatonic scale is intuitive and universal as you say - from celtic music; to South American; middle Eastern and Far Eastern. Way more intuitive, than the church mode music - even the Lydian mode (absence of accidentals) in a standard octave. The key of D is a worldwide favourite - whether that be Celtic, or Swedish or Bulgarian folk music strands in western Europe, or further a field.

I love the downright weird pentatonic scales. The Eb minor ones are great! I have an Eb minor pentatonic xiao flute, unusual in that it has 8 holes and its interval spacing is weird all over!

[peilai2]

Yep, the chinese strings do not use a tempered scale. My ruans are tuned to the old DADA GDGD tuning in which allows for good haromonic spacing for the 3rd and 6th, but no so much the union or the 4th. which tend to be a tad sharp per the western tempered scale.

[sanmenxia]

But if you play a scale along the length of a string on a fretted instrument like the ruan, then surely you would get exactly an equal tempered scale, if the frets are regularly spaced, which is the case with modern standard instruments.

If you tune the strings to pure fifths, then the intervals between the string would be slightly wider than an equal tempered scale. For example, the first string is D and second string is A, and the interval is a pure fifth. Then then D octave on the A string will be a bit sharp.

[teotionghok]

Mar 21, 2011 22:40:28 GMT sanmenxia said:

I think the idea that Chinese scales or music are pentatonic is a common misconception...
There are pieces which does use this scale, eg jasmine flower (molihua), but I think many more uses a 7 note scale. To compose a Chinese sounding piece, I would think you need to listen to a lot of Chinese music and get a feel for the various melodic patterns.

Holdencaufield also noted in another thread (Return to the Chinese scale) that han gong qiu yue uses all seven notes of the diatonic scale.

Although it is true that much Chinese music is based on the ahemiotic pentatonic scale the reality is much more sophisticated. The first important point to make is that the 7 note diatonic major scale has 3 ahemiotic pentatonic scales within it based on doh (1,2,3,5,6), fa (4,5,6,1,2) and sol (5,6,7,2,3). So when we talk about "the" pentatonic scale or "the" Chinese scale we must realise that there is the major scale with 3 pentatonic orientations. Secondly, there are examples of tunes that use quarter tones particularly on fa (4th degree of the scale) so this goes outside of both the pentatonic or diatonic concept. Thirdly, there is the rich Chinese musical language which has many idiomatic ways to shift/modulate between these.