Shanghai Dunhuangs vs Tianyun Yangzhou Gu Zhengs

[xindi]

Well I've finally decided to buy a Gu Zheng after playing with everyone else's I know.

Looking at the market, there seem to be some very nice ones from Shanghai Dunhuang. Any thoughts about the 895LCC model? How does this compare to the 895T model apart from price?

The other brand which stunned me was the Yangzhou Tianyun carved models. They were absolutely stunning in sound. I think i prefer the Tianyun model to the Shanghai Dunhuang version, but it could've been a lemon.

Has anyone experience of either of these brands? I'd be interested in hearing what kind of Gu Zheng brand people own, and why they decided on theirs.

[xindi]

I managed to answer my own question after visiting various places and getting some advice from a GuZheng teacher!

Seems like both have its ardent fan base. The Shanghai Dunhuang are more popular and make a great range although even when others describe them as 'warm', they are still overly 'bright'. Possibly because of their louder volume than some of the Tianyi models.

[xindi]

the price tag of the top of the end Shanghai Dunhuang (shown here) is the same as a middle range Hangzhou version.

I'm not sure, but I think this is the LCC Shanghai Dunhuang version. The shop keeper couldn't answer my questions in English, other than to say that she thought it was great value and it was the best Gu Zheng around.

Trying it out, it is definitely louder than the rosewood and heavy woods of the Hangzhou models. The Shanghai Dunhuang strings are very much liked by both shops, and both offer restringing in Dunhuang nylon coated strings as standard.

The Shanghai Dunhuang L C model is lovely - but it has its faults. It has a huge resonance - so much so, that the reverb seems to slow down even fast finger work. It is definitely geared towards the larger concert player in a chamber ensemble, but I'm not sold on the playability.

Zitan wood bases seem to be favoured by both shops, however heavy woods including mahogany, is also strongly characteristic. The shop which stocked only Shanghai Dunhaungs slated the Hangzhou Tianyi, saying that nothing sounds like the flowing waters of the Dunhuangs when doing the (Hua) flower strokes. The shop stocking both the Dunhuang and the Tianyi, offered that the differences are down to repertoire and taste. Whereas both offer excellent Gu Zhengs, the Tianyi Monk or Dragon models are definitely warmer in tone with a characteristic sweet middle range and very responsive to fast music, without muddying the notes. They were also full of praise for the Shanghai Dunhuang models, but like most teachers, will say that a newcomer should be happy with anything and just stick with it for a year before deciding what to move up to.

I tried this Shanghai Dunhuang model in the shop for about 1 hour. My ears were ringing at the end. It is extremely loud, particularly if you aren't into trying to play chinese traditional tea house music and you sit right beside it. It felt extremely tiring after an hour.

I came back for a third time to try the Hangzhou Tianyi model. There are many nice things about it, including the intricately carved and sculpted dragons. It is extremely well made, but I don't know the language to say if it has a zitan base or not and the shop keeper kept on referring to a chinese term for 'wood' which I haven't found in a dictionary yet.

The strings were rusted from someone with sweaty hands fingering it, so I wasn't particularly thrilled at first. They said that if I was interested in it, of course they would restring it for me. I notice that the bridges were dark wood - not sure if this is just stained cheap wood, or proper dark rose or mahogany wood. The sound is very deft and resonant: it responds quickly across the octaves. The bottom two strings, are better played with the left hand without picks than the right hand with picks. It has a smooth warmth to it, that I can only really describe, as comparing it to a classic tube amplifier, and the Shanghai Dunhuang to a modern valve amplifier. Some will say there isn't that much of a difference, but it was really striking after the third time.

I realised I wasn't getting tired of the Hangzhou Tianyi model. Whereas I really wanted the Shanghai Dunhuang model, it has a concert performance level which I'm really not interested in, and it is too loud and suffers from excessive reverb with faster pieces. The Hangzhou Tianyi is probably the last thing I wanted to buy, since there is so little about it; and Hangzhou is famous for making just about too much of everything, including digital things to flutes. However it is an exceptionally warm Gu Zheng - probably as a result of the wood construction. I would have liked to try some of the Taiwanese ones, but these aren't imported anywhere close to me. The bass response of the bottom note, is not as 'pure' as the Shanghai Dunhuang, but I think that can be fixed with some tuning or another bridge.

In fact, the price difference between this Shanghai Dunhuang model and the Hangzhou Tianyi Dragon model is negligible; overseas stockists of the Shanghai Dunhuang can probably offer pre-Yuan inflation rates with their stock. The Hangzhou Tianyi model, set at 16,000 RMB, is still the same price but inflation of the Yuan against other currencies, make it more expensive to import.

At this price range, either are brilliant in their own characteristics and depending on the skill of the player, both would be highly recommendable. I am however a bit wary of the cheaper Shanghai Dunhuangs apart from the 895/695/898 models on show. There were other unbranded chinese ones on show, but none made an impression and their name wasn't worth remembering. The cheaper Dunhuangs were noticeably inferior to the L C model, but the set up might not have been great. Of the Hangzhou Tianyi models, there were only higher end models on trial, and I just happened to gel with all of them. If you come across any of these, you will find certification of them by the state with an export sticker/warranty. They are getting rarer outside of China, and their price is going/already has gone up.

[xindi]

Forgot the image

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[carol]

Are you in China right now? It seems that you are in a very expensive shop if the price tag is in RMB!

I'm not sure if you are talking about Yangzhou Tianyi （扬州天艺） or Hangzhou Tianyun （杭州天韵）. These two brands are very different. Tianyi makes really good quartersawn-cut soundboards. It's guzheng is well-known for it's clarity and dynamics. When you play one, you can immediately notice the clearness, especially in the mid-range where most other guzhengs sound hallow and too loud. Tianyi's mid-range is clean and tight. However, it doesn't have distinct character that you can describe as "sweet" or "warm". That also means it's very flexible.

On the other hand, Tianyun makes standard guzhengs, flatswan-cut piece soundboard. The mid-range is obviously hallow and blurry. Other parts are nothing special. They are not known to make high-end guzhengs. Any way, a Nanmu Dragon carving won't cost that much in any brands. I won't even pay half that price.

695J is a standard Dunhuang concert grade model. It's slightly better than the 695T/895T model. Yet, I found the mid-range too hallow. When you use flatsawn-cut boards, it's hard to make the middle part clean.

Dunhuang does have a couple makers that have the capability to make the middle part clean. The clean ones are their elite models that they'll present in the music show or awards. The model number usually has more than 1 English letter attached to the 3 digit number. such as 895LCC, 698ZZZ, 698BB, 998OOO, etc. These are very rare, and often twice as expensive as the common 695T/695J/895T/895J/698T/698J/898T/898J.

Any way, if you are in China, you can probably find a 695J around 10,000RMB.

I think, for me, the choice between a Tianyi or Dunhuang is whether you like a mutual clean ear perfect tone or an instrument with character and fault. I always prefer clean one. Uneven tone(the kind that is super loud and hallow in the mid-range) always hurts my ears. So, for a choice between, that's say, Tianyi Nanmu or Dunhuang 695T, I will always go for the Tianyi.
Or if you have the budget, you can move up to the Dunhuang Elites, and get a guzheng that has both the clean tone and character. I'm never satisfied with the 695T or 695J series.

[xindi]

Feb 27, 2011 18:03:17 GMT carol said:

Are you in China right now? It seems that you are in a very expensive shop if the price tag is in RMB!

I'm not sure if you are talking about Yangzhou Tianyi （扬州天艺） or Hangzhou Tianyun （杭州天韵）. These two brands are very different. Tianyi makes really good quartersawn-cut soundboards. It's guzheng is well-known for it's clarity and dynamics. When you play one, you can immediately notice the clearness, especially in the mid-range where most other guzhengs sound hallow and too loud. Tianyi's mid-range is clean and tight. However, it doesn't have distinct character that you can describe as "sweet" or "warm". That also means it's very flexible.

On the other hand, Tianyun makes standard guzhengs, flatswan-cut piece soundboard. The mid-range is obviously hallow and blurry. Other parts are nothing special. They are not known to make high-end guzhengs. Any way, a Nanmu Dragon carving won't cost that much in any brands. I won't even pay half that price.

695J is a standard Dunhuang concert grade model. It's slightly better than the 695T/895T model. Yet, I found the mid-range too hallow. When you use flatsawn-cut boards, it's hard to make the middle part clean.

Dunhuang does have a couple makers that have the capability to make the middle part clean. The clean ones are their elite models that they'll present in the music show or awards. The model number usually has more than 1 English letter attached to the 3 digit number. such as 895LCC, 698ZZZ, 698BB, 998OOO, etc. These are very rare, and often twice as expensive as the common 695T/695J/895T/895J/698T/698J/898T/898J.

Any way, if you are in China, you can probably find a 695J around 10,000RMB.

I think, for me, the choice between a Tianyi or Dunhuang is whether you like a mutual clean ear perfect tone or an instrument with character and fault. I always prefer clean one. Uneven tone(the kind that is super loud and hallow in the mid-range) always hurts my ears. So, for a choice between, that's say, Tianyi Nanmu or Dunhuang 695T, I will always go for the Tianyi.
Or if you have the budget, you can move up to the Dunhuang Elites, and get a guzheng that has both the clean tone and character. I'm never satisfied with the 695T or 695J series.

Hi there,

thanks. Yes I'm in China at the moment (Guangzhou). The price from the shop was from Hong Kong and is in HK$. Just noticed there is a 0 missing so that would be HK$16,500 for the Shanghai Dunhuang model.

I think that's rather expensive, but it did sound good to my ears.

Now the Tianyi/Tianyun models - I think you're as confused about these as I am.

Here is the webpage for the Yangzhou Tianyun models (not Yangzhou Tianyi vs Hangzhou Tianyun models as you have written):

www.yztyqz.com/guzheng/guzheng.html

These are all called 'Yangzhou Tianyun' models. I don't read chinese, but from looking at the characters, it does look like a 'Yangzhou' model.

I was thrilled by all of the models I heard from this store with these ones in it.

I didn't realise there was a Hangzhou version - but the characteristic 'warmth' of the guzhengs in the web link here, is probably due to the heavier denser woods, compared to the hollower high ear piercing ringing described with the Shanghai Dunhuang models by some reviewers.

Don't know if this helps (see image).

whatever models are on the webpage - they have a beautiful mid-tone range and none of the high shrillness that I've found with some of the Shanghai Dunhuang models (which aren't exactly cheap either). Well I thought it would be useful for those who come across whatever models these ones are - they are definitely worthwhile auditioning!

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[carol]

The brand of that is called "Runyun", made by Yangzhou Tianyun factory. I do see a lot of Runyun guzhengs. However, I feel nothing special though. Definietly a darker and warmer tone as all yangzhou guzhengs, if you don't like the piercing brightnes of dunhuang.
I do think the mid-range is pretty hallow though. When I say hallow, I mean when you start plucking from string #1 down, and all of sudden #7 or #8 start turning to a much bigger volume then the earlier strings. Yet, that bigger volume has a loose tone that doesn't sound as tight as the earlier strings. Then after you pass #13 string or so, the sound turn back tight again.

Any way, I've never seen them produce zheng over 5000 RMB either. They make a lot of guzhengs in the low 1000 yuan range. Their price is usually only half of the bigger yangzhou brands, such as Tianyi, Biquan, Jinyun, Longfeng, and etc. Say it in the other way, they only make designs that look exactly the same as the other bigger Yangzhou factories, but the price is 50% down. That definietely attracts a lot of customers who can't tell the difference between the two. I do exam their guzhengs very closely, and understand why they can charge only half the price. They use cheaper materials on everything! soundboard, backboard, bridges, string hole, strings, tuning pins...... just anything you can imagine can be made cheaper. They color the inside of the side box, so you can' t really see how thick the hardwood is. However, if you use a sand paper to sand down the side, you'll be amazed how thin the frame hardwood can be. 1mm Rosewood paper can be called as "rosewood" guzheng, hehehe. Well, at least fr the dragon carving one, they have to use nanmu that thick to do the carving.

[xindi]

Mar 1, 2011 23:44:49 GMT carol said:

The brand of that is called "Runyun", made by Yangzhou Tianyun factory. I do see a lot of Runyun guzhengs. However, I feel nothing special though. Definietly a darker and warmer tone as all yangzhou guzhengs, if you don't like the piercing brightnes of dunhuang.
I do think the mid-range is pretty hallow though. When I say hallow, I mean when you start plucking from string #1 down, and all of sudden #7 or #8 start turning to a much bigger volume then the earlier strings. Yet, that bigger volume has a loose tone that doesn't sound as tight as the earlier strings. Then after you pass #13 string or so, the sound turn back tight again.

Any way, I've never seen them produce zheng over 5000 RMB either. They make a lot of guzhengs in the low 1000 yuan range. Their price is usually only half of the bigger yangzhou brands, such as Tianyi, Biquan, Jinyun, Longfeng, and etc. Say it in the other way, they only make designs that look exactly the same as the other bigger Yangzhou factories, but the price is 50% down. That definietely attracts a lot of customers who can't tell the difference between the two. I do exam their guzhengs very closely, and understand why they can charge only half the price. They use cheaper materials on everything! soundboard, backboard, bridges, string hole, strings, tuning pins...... just anything you can imagine can be made cheaper. They color the inside of the side box, so you can' t really see how thick the hardwood is. However, if you use a sand paper to sand down the side, you'll be amazed how thin the frame hardwood can be. 1mm Rosewood paper can be called as "rosewood" guzheng, hehehe. Well, at least fr the dragon carving one, they have to use nanmu that thick to do the carving.

Thanks for the information!

The only models in the shops I've seen of the Yangzhou Tianyun gu zhengs are the carved ones - of the monk boy or the Kyushu dragons. I didn't know that they make cheaper ones.

For the price of these (1/2 the price of the Shanghai Dunhuang ones) - for the rich warm mid-tones, they are incredibly good! I wouldn't go knocking these, just because they aren't the best ever gu zhengs created! Compared to the ubiquitous Shanghai Dunhuang ones, I can see each has their own advantages, however when it comes to the loud hollow ringing which seems to be a Shanghai Dunhuang trademark in the 'cheaper' gu zhengs costing less than 16,000RMB, these Yangzhou Tianyun ones are fantastic.

I think you're probably right about the lower volume of the lower octave - I put that down to the strings used. Maybe changing them over to Shanghai Dunhuang strings will make a difference. Equally, the lower octave strings of these fine gu zhengs are heavier, and require more force to resonate. I find that with my left hand, I am getting better resonance and warmth than plucking using plectrums.

Thanks for your input and enjoy playing!

[xindi]

Well I'm finally getting into the Gu Zheng!

I must say - what a marvel the Yangzhou Tianyun sounds. I broke two strings, and changed them over to the Shanghai Dunhuang strings. Immediately - there is a sound difference. The Dunhuang strings are definitely 'brighter' than the original Yangzhou strings, however compliments the darker warmer sound of the Yangzhou Gu Zheng.

Now to slowly change the rest of the strings over to the Dunhuang strings...