Changing scales

[Si]

Its a bin of a pain in the neck but now I have to change scales from Huang Zhong Diao to Zhong Lu Diao to play Yang Guan San Die.

What I cant understand is apperently in Huang Zhong Diao its:-
5612356
But in Zhong Lu Diao its:-
2356123

I only have to change the 5th string so how can the numbering of the scale be so totally different, when its only one string different.

Does anyone know what are the correct abcdefg for these scales so i can use my chromatic tuner.

Cheers All

[Charlie Huang]

You're confusing yourself with actual tuning and relative tuning. The tuning of the zhonglu diao is transposed (i.e. the 5th string is do, instead of fa). The pitch of string 5 is Bb (B flat), the other strings stay the same.

Huangzhong diao (zheng diao)
C D F G A c d
5 6 1 2 3 5 6

Zhonglu diao (ruibin diao)
C D F G Bb c d
Actual: 5 6 1 2 4 5 6
Transposed: 2 3 5 6 1 2 3

You only need to tighten the 5th string to Bb.

[Si]

Yeah I dont get this transposing concept. Why would you want to change the numbers assigned to the notes. Anyway I can probably get by for now.

Thanks

[Charlie Huang]

It's a bit cumbersome at first, but you get it after a while.

[kyokuhon]

Hi,
As I understand it (please correct me or refine it if I'm wrong), which scale a piece is in is basically a matter of how you conceptualize the tune; sort of like major and minor in European music. For example, the choice of whether a tune with no sharps or flats is in C major or A minor is a matter of where you feel the tonic note is, where the half-steps fall, and the general feel of the tune. With harmonization it's usually clearer, but with just a simple tune it's frequently a matter of choice. Similarly, a Chinese pentatonic tune can be thought of in "C" using the numbers 12356 for CDEGA; or in "F" using the numbers 56723 for CDEGA. There is a strong preference, however, for the former conceptualization.

The most usual qin tuning of CDFGACD is most congenial to pieces pitched in "F" which gives the open strings the number values of 5612356. A qin piece in "C" can also be played in the most usual tuning of CDFGACD, but that gives the open strings number values of 1245612. Since the usual Chinese pentatonic scale uses the numbers 12356 you could (and some pieces ask you to) retune the third string to "E", but working around the string tuned to 4, though somewhat problematic, is easier than retuning.

I confess, when I'm playing a piece in "C" with the regular tuning I usually take the lazy way, thinking of it and numbering it in "F" since I know the positions of the notes in that scale. The tune ends up with a lot of 7's which doesn't look good for pentatonic placement, but it's easier for me right now. Every now and again I try it with the "real" numbers, and eventually I should learn to read in both scales, but for now it works for me.

Best to all, and keep playing!
K.

[davidmdahl]

kyokuhon said:

Hi,
As I understand it (please correct me or refine it if I'm wrong), which scale a piece is in is basically a matter of how you conceptualize the tune;

The idea of the key of a tune is a concept of Western music. Purely traditional Chinese music is modal, so different rules may fit better. Of course, Chinese music now incorporates Western sensibilities, so in many cases it does work to use Western concepts.

For scale-based tunes, the key or scale is less subjective. The nature of the tune will loudly declare a particular key. This is particularly true of simpler tunes, that usually begin and end on the tonic. Modal tunes don't really have a tonic or harmonic cadences that emphasize certain notes in a scale. This is why Chinese tunes can really sound different when they are harmonized and performed by a Western orchestra.

When I am playing Vietnamese instruments with VN musicians, there is not really a fixed pitch associated with any note. "DO" or C might be actually tuned to G on the piano, or any other note. I suspect this is true of Chinese music as well, at least in less-Westernized contexts. So I suggest that whatever framework you use for tuning your instrument and playing music is fine, and is very traditional. Insisting on notating an F for an F at a specific frequency is not very traditional. You are in good company.

Best wishes,

David

[Si]

So Huang Xhong is in F.

What western scale is Zhong Lu in?

What is C scale in chinese traditionall terms.

Just check wit you all - B flat is the same as A sharp?

Cheers

[Charlie Huang]

Zhonglu is Bb (or A# as you put it).

C scale is Linzhong diao (or Manjiao diao).