How NOT to get ripped off buying a Qin on eBay?

[igliashon]

Hi all. I'm new to this forum and new to the qin, and I have a lot of questions. However, I don't want to be a burden or a bore (since I have so little to offer in return just yet), so I will take my questions one by one and save my personal introduction until invited to give it.

So, without further ado, my first and most important question: how is one to tell a good qin from a poorly-made one on eBay? I know not being able to actually touch and play the qins is a great disadvantage when trying to select an instrument, but surely there must be some way to guide my purchase?

I should say that I have done some homework on the subject; I know about the different woods used in the construction of qins, as well as the different lacquers, and I understand that ones made of old fir wood with animal-based lacquers are considered superior, generally speaking. However, I've also heard it said that ones made from paulownia/tongmu can occasionally have superior tone to ones made out of old fir, as sometimes the sources of ancient fir wood are actually rather poor quality.

That said, I've been scanning for a qin on eBay for quite a while now, and there are two ads that seem promising:
#1:cgi.ebay.com/Paulownia-Wood-Guqin_W0QQitemZ250538345423QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a553fc3cf#ht_4777wt_772

#2:cgi.ebay.com/Professional-Chinese-Guqin-7-stringed-Zither-Instrument_W0QQitemZ230408890927QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a570aa2f#ht_3289wt_987

I've seen members of this forum vouch for the seller of guqin #2 above (i.e. "Sound of China" based in California), but guqin #1 seems like potentially a better deal because the qin comes with a hard case, extra strings, sheet music, and a video CD of instructions. However, it comes directly from China, so I'm a little worried of hidden duty fees and import taxes.

Comparing the quality of the actual qins in the two ads above, I have to say that the two ook pretty identical to me (both are paulownia, neither is hand-made, and the finish looks to be about the same on both), and both *look* much nicer than the cheaper qins that often surface. Both are also sold by sellers with 100% positive feedback for the qins they have sold. But how can I tell if they are *really* better than the cheaper qins that I see from time to time? How do I know that they are not just being "marketed" better?

Also, I have no real idea of how these qins (which run about $380) compare to the more expensive ones (which run above $800). I also have no idea why there seem to be no qins in the price range in between (i.e., where are the $500-$600 qins?).

So, in summary, these are the component parts of my question "How can I buy a guqin on eBay and not get ripped off?":
1. When buying a qin online, what are some things to look for to gauge the quality of a qin?
2. Does anyone have any experience ordering a qin online from China, and if so, can you tell me about duty fees and import taxes?
3. Of the two qins I linked to, which one seems best?
4. What makes a more expensive qin better? I mean, I know the more expensive ones are probably hand-made and made out of ancient fir wood instead of paulownia, but how much difference does that really make?

Thanks all for your help, and I look forward to the day that I can make positive contributions to this forum!

[davidmdahl]

I will provide my $.02, but my experience is general rather than specific to the qin. From your post I assume that you realize that buying from Ebay is inherently risky. Most musical instruments available on Ebay are not great examples of their kind. If you really know what to look for, you can sometimes spot a bargain, but in general people do not put the best instruments up for auction where the special qualities cannot be shown off to best advantage. High quality Chinese instruments in particular are rare. Usually your best access to the really good instruments is via a well-connected teacher who has personal relationships with the best makers.

A qin under $1000 is going to be a so-called "beginner's" instrument, so your expectations should be realistic. Qualilty will probably vary considerably from instrument to instrument. I don't think that there is much you can tell from a description on Ebay. Even price is not going to be a useful gauge of quality. In this case, the reputation and experience of the vendor is really important. I don't know how much Carol of Sound of China knows about the qin, but in my experience she offers good value. I don't think that she would risk her reputation on firewood.

Regarding the extras offered along with the qin, I would focus primarily on the quality of the qin. You can always order accessories later. If you want to order from China, I would not worry too much about unknown fees. I have ordered a lot of instruments from Asia, and only in one case did I have to pay any duty, and that was only about $25.

If I was to order a beginner's qin, I would probably choose the one from Sound of China. I have more confidence in Carol's judgement, and it is a lot easier to handle problems with a domestic vendor. I would not attempt to get a better qin from Ebay. The ones at over $800 are probably not any better. After some experience with a beginner's instrument you will know what to look for if you someday decide to get something better.

I have the great privilege of knowing one of the few qin masters in the world, and he lives in my city of Portland, Oregon. I have my hands full with other instruments, or I would be very tempted to study qin with him. I did ask him how I might get a good qin. The response was to travel to China with him. So many instruments are either overpriced or more suited for decoration than playing, and it takes a lot of experience to find the gems.

Best wishes,

David

[igliashon]

Hi David, thanks for your input!
Indeed, I'm really only looking for a beginner's qin. I've played guitar for about 14 years, and I've had plenty of experience buying guitars on eBay, but of course buying a qin is a completely different game. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I know that NAGA is based around here, so I've given thought to buying a qin from them. However, their lowest-end instruments are over $600. I'm having a hard time understanding how a $600+ instrument from them can really be that much better than the $380 ones on eBay when both are considered entry-level and will have to be replaced if I successfully develop into a serious qin player.

Anyway, the only reason I concern myself with the accessories is because they seem SO expensive.. I mean, $130 for a hard case, $60 for strings, and then between $20 and $50 for educational accessories (judging by NAGA prices) means that the qin from China would save me $240--almost the cost of the qin itself! But of course this also causes me to suspect that it must be of a much inferior quality. Hence, I came here asking for any tips in judging quality.

All I really want from my first qin is that it be decently playable and and that it not break or fall apart on me. So it's not that I need tips on spotting the really good qins, it's that I need tips on spotting unplayable ones so that I can avoid them. I can tell that those "antique" ones that appear with a starting price of $28, or the multitudes of qins that start at $0.19 (with a shipping cost of $300), are probably unplayable, despite their seller's claims to the contrary.
But the one selling for $379 that includes all the accessories is from a "top-rated" seller with positive feedback for all their qin sales, and it *looks* as good as the ones sold by Sound of China. I guess that's as good as I can hope for?

Hmm...now that I think about it, even if the $379 qin directly from China is low-quality, it's really only $140 if the value of the accessories is subtracted from the price. I can always sell it as an ornament if I really don't like, and keep the case, strings, and educational materials for when I buy a better qin. And if it turns out to be a decent instrument that I can learn on, all the better!

And really, is it such a hindrance to learn on a poor-quality instrument? I would think that in learning to make a bad instrument sound good, one improves one's skill in a way that would make playing well on a GOOD instrument easier. Like training in a martial art with weights on the limbs. Am I mistaken in this line of thought?

I welcome any more thoughts on this matter if anyone has another suggestion for me, but I think I may have come to a decision. Thank you.

[davidmdahl]

It sounds like you have reasoned things out rather well. I would not try to talk you out of ordering from the China source. It is an attractive package. I wonder if the blue fabric case comes with the deal.

If you want to give Carol a chance, you could call her up at the number on her website (www.chinesezither.com) and see if she can provide the extras you are looking for at a good price. She lists guqin strings at $25 per set. I think that she avoids hard cases since they add significantly to the shipping cost. Of course, for a smaller instrument such as a guqin, that may not be as significant.

Otherwise, I would not worry much about complications of ordering overseas. As long as the qin is well-packed, it should be fine.

A student-quality qin will probably differ from one of higher quality in the volume of sound and the evenness of the finger board. A badly shaped qin will be very frustrating to play, since the strings can buzz against high points on the finger board. A qin is an inherently quiet instrument, but a really good one will have more resonance than one of poorer quality. If you have compared cheap guitars with expensive ones, you should understand the situation with the qin.

I well know the excitement of getting a new instrument from overseas. Have fun!

Best wishes,

David

[davidmdahl]

Not to muddy the waters, but there are some more options at the Ebay vendor's website (china.presentation):

www.shoppingchinanow.com/shop/guqin.html

Best wishes,

David

[Charlie Huang]

Sorry for this belated reply but here is my qin player's advice:

1. Don't get distracted by the price. People charge different prices depending on their experience. Generally qin players would charge more close to the actual value than someone who doesn't know a thing about qin. Sometimes, qins are charged according to what a qin player would likely pay for. Vendors sometimes charge huge prices for what we would consider firewood so a high price doesn't necessary mean quality. Also, there are other things to consider such as middleman fees, etc.

2. Don't get distracted by 'extras'. These are usually there to lure you in. You need to ask yourself do you need a hard case, etc? Strings and other stuff can be had at a later date, concerntrate on the qin.

3. Don't get distracted by the wood/materials. Even if it is made of 2000 year old Han dynasty wood, if it is crappily made, the sound is bad, etc it is not worth its weight in salt. Sound quality and playability/workmanship are the important factors.

4. Always buy from a reputable source. This means a source that knows about said instrument. Carol knows how to play qin so her qin is most likely to be playable and sound decent enough for a beginner. For the other vendor, you don't know if they have a qin player testing out the qin, etc. A friend of mine recently bought a qin from eBay and then found out when he received it that the hui positions were all off so rendering the qin useless! You need to ask yourself; are you going to buy a qin from a vendor that knows how to play qin and has tested said qin or are you going to take the risk and buy what essentially is a stab in the dark?

5. Now, looking at the two selections you have given; the first one to my eye looks legit (I can tell a crap one a mile off). In fact, it would be worth my gamble too. The second one (Carol's) is a safer bet at quality. It seems you have a sound approach; buy it and if it is not up to scratch then sell it, keep the extras and buy Carol's qin.

[igliashon]

Well, just as I thought I had talked myself into buying the guqin from www.shoppingchinanow.com, I discovered that NAGA is offering a 10-week group class starting January 19th. It's being taught by Wang Fei, and it's $680 for 10 2-hour group lessons (so about $35/hour). Is this a good deal? I live in Oakland, CA, so it's not too far of a drive. The upshot as regards my qin purchase is that NAGA offers rental qins to their students at the rate of $100 for the duration of the class, and the first class covers maintenance and selection of a guqin. I figure that if I take the class, after 10 weeks or so I should know whether or not I'm dedicated enough to warrant buying a good qin, so maybe I won't waste $400 on a beginner's instrument.

But then again, the class IS a lot of money; ostensibly, I could buy a cheap qin and get some videos and CD's, and try to teach myself. I'm a proficient guitarist, so it's not like I have no idea what to do with the instrument (I mean, the techniques are quite different to be sure, but I'm sure there's some carry-over). What do y'all think about this? Is it worth my time and money to learn from Wang Fei?

[davidmdahl]

You can fiddle around by yourself on the guqin and have some fun, but there is really no substitute for a teacher for learning how to play properly. There is nothing else like a guqin, so anything else you play will not be much help. The opportunity to take guqin lessons is pretty rare. You are lucky to live where that is possible. Lessons will save you a lot of time and trouble, and it should be great fun.

Studying music can get expensive. I don't think that $680 to get started is unreasonable. If it gets under your skin, get used to paying for those lessons. <g> It is very addicting.

Best wishes,

David

[Charlie Huang]

If you really do want to learn qin seriously then lessons (especially at the beginning) are essential. You want to get technique right first or you'll develop bad habits that are difficult to correct. IMO, going through lessons first has the advantage of seeing if you could connect with qin; if you do then you can buy a qin and already have the grounding to progress on your own; if not then at least you know and you didn't spend hundreds of dollars on a qin.

[xindi]

Just wondering if you sold your guqin Charlie.

Having fiddled with a few for a few hours and tried to rember hui positions, I.m none the wiser as to how to play it.

I wouldn't recommend anyone bother with it unless they have a tutor at hand, or particularly like exotica.

But if Confucius could play it, I want to too!

[Charlie Huang]

I did not sell the old qin in the end as I am using silk strings on it and it is good to switch to it when I feel like it.

Some people can connect to it, some can't. You won't know unless you've tried so don't dismiss it outright without having a go first.