Acquiring good qins & Charlie's postgraduate plans

[Charlie Huang]

YouLanFengChune said:

Hi Charlie... I need to ask of something.

What makes a good Guqin? Features?
What strings, accessories are nedeed? Any really very good brands?

I wrote a very long post the other day and the computer crashed before I submitted it!

Firstly, there are many factors that premit a good qin. The wood for a start should be appropriate, that is tong wood, old or new, must be well seasoned and had its sap and resin removed naturally. Must be flawless.

The hollowing out of the wood must be done carefully so that the sound isn't too bright or too wooden. The surface of the qin must be well curved and straight, lacqured with deer horn powder in the mixture, and smoothed. Any flaws results in buzzing sounds. The bridge and nut should be at an appropriate height. If the bridge is too low, there will be buzzing sounds and cause the fingers to hit the surface during playing, too high and it would be difficult to finger higher notes as the string would 'resist'. In addition, all hui should be positioned correctly and accurately, or the qin would be rendered useless.

Other things like strings, rongko, etc can be changed, so they aren't important when selecting a qin. Rongko can be made by yourself. The metal/nylon strings that I have are made by the Shanghai Conservatory Musical Instrument Factory, and they are one of the best, professional quality. There are others which I don't know of. Silk strings are already discussed in the Silk String thread. Tuning pegs must be long enough to grip and must have slits at the side so you can grip onto them. Normally made out of rosewood, and sometimes jade.

As for makers, see this page from John Thompson's site:
www.silkqin.com/03qobj/buy.htm
In addition to JT's list of makers, I'll like to add Chai Fook Ki of Hong Kong.
TBH, qin players who are already experienced like me, would avoid going to stores on the streets of China to buy qins as there are factory made and often inferior in quality. We would go to makers who know their stuff. There are factories that are supervised by experts and these are the ones to look for. I do not have knowledge in this area, names of brands and factories that is. It would be good to talk to the various makers or professional qin players in China, would would give good advice. Qins that are supervised by qin players/masters and/or selected by them are much better than off the kiln qins, as you know they are gonna be very good (though they are more expensive). The best place on the net to get qins, well, I don't really need to say it again, is CCN.

The qin I got is a "Longfeng" (dragon phoenix) brand and that is OK. Though I know that there are better ones out there.

[blueharp]

May I respectfully add some information.

An analogy for guqin is violin. Both are extremely complicated instruments to make and require a high level of craftmanship. There are good factory made violins but the really good ones are made by individual artisans.

To the best of my knowledge the better instruments made by the large "factories" are by Longfeng (their high end guqins won awards last September) and Jinyun. There are also smaller factories run by master qin makers. I believe that Mr. Wang Peng of Beijing and Mr. Ma Wei Heng of Yangzhou are just 2 such examples.

Some accessories that are useful would be:

Qin Zhen (Tuning Pegs)
The "modern" tuning block with 7 zither pins
Tuning wrench for above
Strings (both silk and metal/nylon)
Affordable Portable Qin Table
Appropriate silk thread for rong-kou
Tassles (AKA Qin Fringe)
Soft Cases
Hard Cases

The absolute best accessory would be a mail-order teacher, although the postage would be horrendous! ;D

Might there be Singaporean guqin players that would be willing to advise in person about instrument quality?

[Charlie Huang]

Out of what the accessories listed, I'd say there are a few things which aren't that essential. Firstly, is the tuning block with the tuning wrench, which is only needed if you have problems with stringing. The tassle is also not that needed, as it is mostly for decorative purpose than an intrinsic use. You don't need a hardcase (unless you travel a lot, like abroad), it a waste of space in my books. A softcase is good to travel as well as keep your qin in when not in use. Silk or nylon can both be used as softcases, nylon is better as it keeps out the rain as is cool.

Where and how to store qins:
Best place would be a room that has a constant temperature, away from central heating sources. Depending where you got your qin, you might want to get a humidifier (or you can place damp cloths over the sound holes over night every few weeks, or in times of drought, like in summer, everynight). You can put the qin in your hard case, if your room is too dry and warm, or a soft case. You should also get your qin out from time to time to allow some fresh air to circulate. Never store your qin in the horizontal postion for long periods of time as it might warp. It should be stood up vertically (with the end pointing upwards), ideally, hung up on a wooden wall with a hook (see Yuguzhai Qinpu, etc for proper hook making info.).

[Si]

What sort of price range would you advise a beginner to spend on their first Gu Qin?
I do not want to spend too much just incase I am forced to abandon learning due to lack of skill.
I will be buying from the China music shops I suppose, as I dont have any opportunity to seek out a maker.
I judt want a decent instrument that sound good!

[carol]

Price varys. I paid $400 for my first guqin, which I found to be not playable after taking a couple lessons. In less than one month, I had to buy another one for $950 that's in descent playable condition from CCN.

I've seen really good descent ones around 3000 yuan in Shanghai street, but also crappy ones around the same price range. The 3000 yuan one is a Longfeng brand, sounds better than the $950 one I bought from CCN.

[Si]

What do you mean by not playable.

I went down the the gu qin shop last Sunday and he told me the qins range from 3000-10,000 rmb and up!

He demonstrated the difference between the 3500 and the 10,000 one. From what I could tell the more expensive one sounded more mellow and deep, but I hardly felt it was worth paying 3x more for it at such a beginner level - maybe in a few years after reaching a decent amount of skill!

Or is it some thing (problem) that will only become apparent a few weeks after I buy it?

I would like to ask you all out there - how much did you pay for your first qin and how long did you keep it before buying another one???

Cheers

[Charlie Huang]

OK, this 'unplayable' stuff is potentially misleading. It can only be considered 'unplayable' if it cannot produce the required sound, or the instrument is organologically incorrect (example in one of the crappy qin threads). Some qins have their strings a bit too high or too low, but it is hardly justifiable to brand it 'unplayable'.

[myears]

Hello fellow qin players,
I have found this site and your comments helpful. I am currently in Suzhou and just beginning to study guqin. My teacher told me to not be too concerned about practicing in the beginning because I may develop bad habits that could be hard to correct. Even so I feel I need to purchase a guqin to begin practicing even though I will do so ever so slowly and carefully. Being a student I do not have much money so I will look at some LongFen qins in the stores here. But in the back of my mind I'm thinking it might be better to buy a qin made by my teacher even though it is well outside of my budget.

all the best,
john

[Si]

Hi,

Whats the name of your teacher and is he a qin maker, dont mind visiting his factory one week end? I am staying in Shanghia.

I think you should get a qin to practice with, unless you are using the teachers every day. How will you improve if you cant practice and anyway your teacher can correct your fingering each lesson just as most people learn instruments.

Im only a beginner but i cant see anything so sacred or difficult in the basic fingerings, just go for it and get your fingers dirty so to speak.

[myears]

Hello Syburn,
My teacher's name is Mr. Pei. I don't know his full name. He showed me a guqin dvd collection that he played on. But, I don't know the name of the box collection. I can ask him next week about visiting his factory. Then we can arrange a time for you to visit. Are you interested in buying a better guqin? The ones I've seen in his studio all use silk strings.
I checked out some guqin's today at the music shops here, but I didn't buy one yet. I really need time with the instrument to get a better idea how it sounds. The ones made from Sha wood seemed to sound better.
I looked into hardshell cases also because I will be travelling back to the states eventually and I don't feel comfortable with a soft case. They started at about 1500RMB. That was almost as much as the guqin itself.

Have you ever been to the teahouse near the Shanghai music conservatory where they play guqin? I was there last year and I nearly spent the entire day there just watching and listening. I never dreamed a place like that existed. I haven't been back yet but I plan to return this summer.


john

[Si]

Hi,

Well the "long feng" qins seem to start at 1300rmb. But I think you will hate it very soon. Mine cost 3500rmb and I am actually quite happy with it. The man that made it is from jiansu so he might be the same as your teacher. I will check tomorrow. Just dont spend to long in that shop near the Shanghai conservatory, cos their qins are very good and the best sounding ones are 10,000rmb.

I might sell mine at the end of the year and upgrade but that might be too long for you to wait. I was thinking there should be a lot of qin players wanting to sell their old qins 2nd hand but as I cant read chinese i will never know............... If you can get a friend to help you, I suggest a 2nd hand one to start with if money is tight.

Jeez, 1500rmb for a hard case, thats crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards the tea house, you mean the one with the qins hanging on the wall...................thats a qin shop!! That serves good tea for free. We are rather bless to have such a specialist shop here in Shanghai, I bet the US and UK members of this forum would love to have access to such a great place to hang out and talk-play qin.

It has moved to another location, across the road in a old building. I will try to get the correct address cos I only know how to navigate myself there.

[kyokuhon]

Hi, all,
Hey, does anyone know a maker named Wang Jian in Yang Zhou? Any opinions? Yup, I'm on ebay (echinaville) again.
Best,
K.

[Charlie Huang]

Nope. Never heard of him.

[Si]

Hi, John (staying in Suzhou)

I called up the local qin shop in shanghai and they tell me they only have 300rmb hardcase. No others to offer me. And they say all the pros use them that shop there.

So what can this 1500rmb case look like, that you mention above?. Yet me know as I will pop down to the shop today and check out the 300rmb ones.

[maaltan]

Scary.... all these mean stories. These guqin scare me. from evil teachers to poison ivy varnish...

I love the music (more than erhu... well at least in a different way erhu=party music, qin = alone music) but I am not known for taking good care of things. I don't think i would be a good keeper of a guqin.

If it can't sit unattended on a shelf for months at a time until i get in the mood/find the time to mess with it, well you get the point. The erhu boils down to put a stick over the bridge before placing back in case... and don't kick it too hard... and don't leave it in the car or the freezer.

I am not really interested in purchasing a new instrument (unless someone comes up with an offer i cannot refuse). Just asking questions right now. I figure i should at least wear our a few sets of strings on the new erhu before i go buying more.

I guess now is the time for the questions...

How irreversable is the damage caused by low humidity? my climate typically runs my inside humidity at 60-80% in the summer... but drops to 2-3% in the winter. Again, sitting over the qin with a spray bottle isn't something i would do for very long. I admit it

How much learning material can be found in english or electronic (and therefore google translatable) format? How difficult would it be to self learn? (yeah yeah ... answer: very hard ... especially the roll and vibrato techniques)

Does the qin use nails like the guzheng? (i cant really tell from videos ive found)

and the big one and the reason i put it as a reply in the buying a guqin thread... I cannot travel to china to find one, therefore I would have to trust someone on here to sell me one. I would like one thats very playable and free if possible

Well thats enough dreaming for one night. Must go to sleep now.

[blueharp]

Guqin are pretty tough. There are instruments over a thousand years old that are still playable!

"Irreversible" depends on the type damage. A good luthier can take care of many things and it is possible to touch up any dings in the lacquer. Minor irregularities in the surface can be polished out fairly easily. The worst thing would probably be a crack in the wood on the upper face. That sort of thing can render the instrument useless, but it can still be repaired if you can find someone either skilled or willing to do it. Old violins etc often have serious cracks that have been repaired over the years.

There is some material available in English. When combined with VCDs (especially Li Xiangting's and Gong Yi's) they make self-study possible. There is no substitute for the input of an experienced teacher. Even a lesson or two can really help.

The qin is played using fingernails, although there are some references to artificial nails being glued to the fingernail.

Finding a good affordable guqin is not easy and involves taking a risk - the instrument might be a clunker suitable only for a wall ornament.

I liken guzheng to the guitar:

Tens of thousands are being made every year and reasonably good instruments can be had for a few hundred dollars.

There are superb instruments to be had for anywhere from a thousand to five thousand dollars.

At the upper end (over ten thousand dollars) are instruments that are either for virtuosos or collectors.

Guqin on the other hand is quite like the violin/viola/cello:

There are the mass produced entry level instruments that range from barely playable to OK that cost a couple of hundred dollars.

Then there are "intermediate" instruments that sound pretty decent and can be had for a couple of thousand dollars.

The "professional" instruments are usually between five and ten thousand dollars.

Then come the high end instruments crafted by an artisan that can cost tens of thousands of dollars or much more.

Last but not least are the antiques made by Stradivari, Amati, Guarneri et al. They cost millions.

It all depends on what you want. Of course it would be nice to have dedicated guqin stores everywhere so we could try them out. There are apparently a few here and there in Asia but none anywhere else yet.

[Charlie Huang]

You can solve the humidity problem by buying a humidifier (some cost very little, but their upkeeping is high). Or, placing bowls of water near it, placing a damp cloth over the soundholes, etc. Cracks only appear on the natural faults in the wood or the joints, so it depends on the qin. Joint cracks need not be fatal and can be fixed by an expert (Christopher Evan's Zeng Chengwei one has joint cracks, yet it still sounds the same).

You don't need fake nails.

As long as you store your qin vertically, it would be alright.

As Blueharp said, shop around for a good deal. Most importantly, know what you're looking for, or some people may "cut" you if they think you don't have experience.

[shoppingchinanow]

kyokuhon said:

Hi, all,
Hey, does anyone know a maker named Wang Jian in Yang Zhou? Any opinions? Yup, I'm on ebay (echinaville) again.
Best,
K.

When selecting a quqin, first you need to know where it is made, as those coming from South China may not adapt to the dry weather condition easity.

But if it is humid and hot, those from Yangzhou could be a nice choice. Generally speaking, most guqin products from Yangzhou are of average quality only, except those from Ma Wei HENG, the best known maker there in Yangzhou.

But acquiring a guqin hand-made by him is really difficult.

[carol]

Based on the making method of guqin, I suspect that it's influenced by weather so much. I assume guqin wood are all soaked in the water for years then air-dried for at least 5 years, right? Then no matter where it's made, it should adapt to the dry weather.

I know on guzheng it's common to say that southerners buy south zheng and northerners buy north zheng. The main reason behind that is because the south guzhengs are not proper dried, so the wood are not so stable, and they usually crack within the first winter.
It would be sad if guqins are also made in this way nowadays.

[Charlie Huang]

Even a good Zeng Chengwei qin could crack due to climate change, so it is best to look after your instrument like a hawk for the first few years whilst it gradually stablises.

Yes, 5 years minimum drying period. In fact, 20 years is much better. Basically, you want to remove as much of the moisture inside the wood as possible.

[Si]

Is that zeng chenwei from Vol 3 of the hugo sichuan qin CD?

Wow he plays well and makes top notch qins as well?

How much would one of his lower end models go for and where would you buy one from (in China)?

[Charlie Huang]

Yep, vol 3 of Hugo Sichuan CD.

I don't know, but I expect you can from most places. The cost is resonable and modest, unlike some of the pretentiously high prices some makers charge. His qins are consistent in quality and sound. He's also very down to earth in real life.

His qins are quite distinctive, you can tell it is his qin by looking at the design of the juanjue (ceremonial cap) at the tail of the qin, body rather flat, steep slope at the head, easy to play, strings close to the surface yet no buzzing, sweet sounding and broad in bass, his name is written inside the qin located next to the nayin of the dragon pool.

[Charlie Huang]

I think I'm gonna commission a ZCW qin via CCN when I have the money. I feel his qins are a safer bet (since he is a good player in his own right and so will be able to know a good sound, unlike many other makers) and I won't be overcharged. Need to save up at least £2000 to be safe.

[Si]

yeah i also dont mind one,

best would be to go to china (were does he live?) before you enroll at the music conservatory and get one then.

did he teach at onne of the london summer schools?

[Charlie Huang]

Yes he did. Actually, when I do my PhD, he's my first stop in China fieldwork (he lives in Chengdu).