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Post by blueharp on Feb 16, 2005 0:21:20 GMT
I am getting a bit discouraged with a lack of progress. The danger of independent study! Proper execution of tiao seems to elude me. Although I can read the notation, consistant execution of the music is really lacking. This is immensely frustrating! I have some music, but most of it turns out to be too advanced for my level at the moment. I was fortunate enough to attend a class given by Wang Fei, and had a 2 hour coaching with one of her students about basic techniques. That revealed the many deficincies in my technique. Oh, the music I slaughter is: Qiu Feng Ci Jiu Kuang Yang Guo San Die is another work in progress, but I can't seem to get it comfortable under my fingers. It sounds terrible! I told Miss Wang that I was trying to learn Yiguren and she told me that even though it seems easy it really isn't and to put it aside. The only piece that sounds decent is Xianweng Cao from John Thompson's site. Any hints as to a book of easy pieces? Ah, sometimes ignorance is bliss! Steve
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Post by gubaba on Feb 16, 2005 3:41:50 GMT
May I suggest the LiXiangting VCD tutorial from CCN.
The disks come with a 34 page booklet of exercises and songs like Chi Feng Tzu. The songs look simplified somewhat over versions from Lieberman's Meian Chin Pu. CCN also is selling a seperate book to go with the VCD which I have yet to see.
I am finding the curve to be a bit steep. I keep cranking the exercises trying to get a feel for the notes. There are just too many of them, too many places to go to do the same thing. Add the modes and my head starts to hurt.
My music background is trombone. The ear helps alot.
By the way, I also have a Guqin from Violinking. I missed the tuning wrench in the packing though. Mine has some characters on the back but they appear to be a different style than what I've seen. I'm not sure whether they are simplified though they look like characters you see in texts showing the progression of various charaters over time.
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Post by blueharp on Feb 16, 2005 7:05:03 GMT
Thanks for the suggestion! I do have that VCD and the Gong Yi VCD.
I agree - so many possibilities!
My background is primarily harp, although I started as an oboist eons ago. A good ear definately helps, but a good teacher is better.
Not understanding Mandarin is a major hurdle. There are subleties of play that are not easily picked up by just watching the VCD without understanding the language. The way the left hand moves is one example.
I don't own the Mei'an Chin-Pu and it is out of print. I think I need to get a copy. There is one in Bangkok. It is funny - Professor Lieberman is not more than 40 miles from me yet I have to get his book from the other side of the world!
How do you like your Violinking guqin? I like mine quite a bit - it's hard to believe what a good value it is!
The guqin that I have is a Fu Xi style probably patterned after the Jiu Xiao Huan Pei. I have another guqin that is a close reproduction of that instrument made from old wood with the cracked lacquer and it has the inscriptions carved into the back. Perhaps yours is a closer copy than mine.
I should post pics, you too! It would be great to compare them.
Steve
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Post by Charlie Huang on Feb 16, 2005 12:37:30 GMT
Please post pics of your qin in the pic thread, I'll try translate the calligraphy on them (I have a calligraphy dictionary on hand).
As for the technique 'tiao', it is probably the hardest to get right. You must remember to support the index finger with your thumb. It should be touching the first joint exactly, and not in the middle of the belly of the index finger. Then, whenever you play tiao, you must support the hand with your middle finger on an upper string. If you wanna san tiao seventh string, you place your index finger on the fifth string. Then, the plucking is done by a pushing movement with you thumb, not a dragging motion of the middle finger. The area of the nail that contacts the string should be the lower third nearest the tip (your nails should be of sufficent length to produce a clear sound). You must get the angle right (around 45 degrees towards the surface of the qin). The index finger should be stopped naturally by the adjacent string, in this case the sixth. To pluck the adjacent string straigth after the first, you must draw your index finger back away from the string and then pluck. This time, your index and middle finger should be aligned perfectly together after the pluck, and your index finger should not be caught on the string where your middle finger is resting. In 'li', you don't need to draw your index finger back to pluck the adjacent string.
As for pieces, Qiu Feng Ci and the ones you outlined are good. If you have trouble with YGSD, it maybe because of the difference in tuning. You should learn the standard note postions of the zheng diao before you learn a piece with different tuning, or it'll confuse you. Always read the notation carefully. Also, Jiu Kuang looks simple, but it has difficult bits in it, like the 'gui' technique.
You should get LXT's book as it is very useful (there are errors, like the entire qin notation of Pu'an Zhou is missing!), but it is very detailed and helpful. You must consider buying this. Also, you are best practicing a few pieces until you get them right, rather than trying to obtain more 'scores'. They are not much use unless they have explainations with them, or you are at a experienced level.
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Post by kyokuhon on Feb 16, 2005 21:03:22 GMT
Hi, everybody. I just had to reply to this line, though I fear I don't really have much to add. I have a very similar situation to blueharp, even down to the violinking guqin and the pieces you're working on. Too bad we're 3,000 miles apart. And thanks, Charles, for the recommendation for Liang Xiangting's book. I have Gong Yi's book, but not VCD, and Mr. Liang's VCD (I agree, very helpful!). I find the Gong Yi book to be helpful also, in that he has some simpler pieces. I don't know what they are, as I don't read Chinese, but I have a friend working on the translation of the titles, at least. My longest background is with European lute, so I'm used to reading unusual notations. Keep playing, everyone, and don't get discouraged! K.
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Post by blueharp on Feb 18, 2005 6:48:05 GMT
What brought all of this on is the coaching session that revealed all the technique problems. I thought I was doing pretty well until then!
I did find a guqin syllabus and the pieces that I was working on were too advanced for my current level.
The point of asking about sources for beginner music is that I don't want to acquire more scores, just to find sources appropriate to my current level.
I agree that it is much better to learn to play a few simple pieces really well rather than limp through something more difficult.
Jiu Kuang is easy to remember because it has short repeated phrases. The gui (kneeling) technique is definately a killer! A few thousand more slow repetitions and I might just get it.
Kyokuhon, you play lute? COOL! I used to play lute and have a theorbo. My guqin/guzheng buddy here also plays lute. Interesting!
Steve
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Post by Charlie Huang on Feb 18, 2005 11:14:28 GMT
I've tried to type this bloody message out twice, but whenever I get near to the end, the computer decides to bloody crash, forcing me to re-write the damn bloody thing again! Hope it doesn't this time...
Yes, LXT's VCD is the best. Not only does it show the essential techniques, step-by-step (with the exception of 'lun' which seems to be missing on my VCD) and the tutorials are very helpful in learning the four pieces. Plus, it displays the qin notation of each technique which is essential (and missing on most other VCDs). His book takes this one step further. It is constructed perfectly, like a 'teaching tool', starting with short exercises, moving onto pieces with good explanations to complement them with which I find very useful. But, the bit at the back concerning stringing et al is illustrated poorly. You can see the photos clearly enough for them to be of legit use. They should have used diagrams, which would have been better. As I said above, there are errors, like the entire qinpu of Pu'an Zhou missing. Other than that, the very last section about how to select a qin is a must to read. Overall, it is the best book to get if you are learning to play qin.
GY's VCD is also good. They most useful parts are the bits where he shows you stringing, tuning, etc. The technique bit is good, but by no means complete. But he does show some important ones (like how to press on two or more strings with the thumb) which I find very useful. The second VCD in the set is a performance set, which is good to watch and admire, but a short tutorial on each piece would have made it better. His book is OK. The first part is useful as it illustrates in detail stringing, tuning, etc. The second part is more of a 'repetoire record' more than anything else. Most of which you won't know how to play as a beginner. Having said that, I'm also not sure about his new qin notation. I want to learn to play qin pieces, not try and emulate a said piece from another instrument just so I can subcum to peer pressure, to 'fit in' or 'just because other instruments use it'. But that's for another discussion. It can be off putting, yet he does put in some very useful information.
Another VCD that you might consider is Wu Zhao's, but it is not as good as LXT or GY's. It has five VCDs, the first two dealing with qin, and the rest are tutorial pieces. The first two are OK, though it would have helped tremendously if he showed qin notation eqivalent in his explanation of techniques. Plus, there seems to be a rushed feeling. The tutorials are useful IF you have the qinpu with you. The first print comes in a box and has a book of scores. The new print has the VCDs but it DOESN'T come with the book of scores, which totally kills the use of the tutorials, unless you have the qinpu with you in order for you to know how to play the thing.
There are other teaching material avaliable in CCN but I haven't got them yet to review. Hopefully, I'll get them soon because I like watching qin VCDs (better than watching the crap on TV these days...).
'Gui' only hurts if you use the wrong part of the finger to press of the string. It should be the first joint, and to the side of that so your finger is at a 45 degree angle from the length face of the qin. Also, your other fingers should be straightened (but slightly bent) and relaxed. You should practice gui over several strings and try to find a way to play it correctly and producing a good clear sound. If it starts to hurt like hell, then stop and rest for a few days until the pain resides then continue practicing.
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Post by kyokuhon on Feb 22, 2005 19:06:20 GMT
Hi, all, and especially blueharp! I had just one more thought on Jiu Kuang: I have a recording of Jiu Kuang which is much slower than the way LXT plays it, at least on the instructional VCD. Sorry, I don't have the name, number, or performer (lack of reading Chinese again!), but it's in the 3-CD set offered occasionally on ebay. I'm not sure which one I'll ultimately like better, but it is a nice option while learning.
And, blueharp, yes, that is cool. I've been playing lute off and on for 30+ years. In fact, I'm playing soon for an opening of staff art where I work, and I'm thinking of playing lute, qin,and classical guitar. What do/did you play on your theorbo?
Best to all, K.
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Post by blueharp on Mar 10, 2005 7:30:16 GMT
Eons ago I was a lutenist before a series of events lead me astray. On theorbo I mostly like the Italian repetoire - Piccinini, Kapsberger. Also working (very slowly right now) Visee, Bach (transcribed by Rob McKillop) and Couperin. Hope the art opening was fun! If you play all three instruments it will be a pretty esoteric opening. Steve
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Post by kyokuhon on Mar 14, 2005 19:23:22 GMT
Hi, Steve. Well, interesting. I've played and loved Kapsberger on 10-course for years, though I only discovered him because the Italian edition of his Libro Primo was so inexpensive. I also like Ballard, Francesco, Cutting and Dowland. I've been thinking of getting a little 6-course just for Francesco, but find I've been spoiled by the prices of Chinese instruments. I used to play with a couple of early music groups, but not so much anymore. I think I like the guqin for similar reasons that I like lute. The music gives me a window into another world. And, I can play whenever I feel like it and not have to gather a group together. The opening was fun, thanks! I DID play all three instruments, and it WAS eclectic. I'll try to email you the program and notes. And, as one listener pointed out, the guqin makes the lute sound loud. Good luck with Johann and Robert. K.
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