erhu vibrato

[davidmdahl]

I don't have quite the control over vibrato that I should have. The speed and depth should vary with the style and musical requirements of the particular tune, and I am finding it difficult to slow down the vibrato speed while playing a tune. My hand and wrist gets tense, and I also often find that my left elbow is down too far to allow a good vibrato. Elbow position was easy to be lazy on before, but now I am paying the price for a bad habit!

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Best wishes,

David

[paulv]

Hi David,
My teacher showed me how to do vibrato last spring and I'm still trying to perfect the speed and depth. I would suggest that you practice slow vibrato with minimal depth -- you can increase both of these as your hand gets stronger. If you start doing it fast, it will difficult to slow down as you have already experienced.

By the way, which vibrato technique are you using? I was taught the method of twisting the wrist while the finger sections (first & second from fingernail) alternately bend/straighten. I never felt any discomfort from this, even in the beginning.

Hopefully, Carlos will chime in as he's been playing the longest of all of us erhu players that frequent this forum.

Regards

Paul

[davidmdahl]

Thanks for the comments, Paul. I am using a sort of violin vibrato technique. I understand that the traditional erhu vibrato that at least some of the old players still employ is best described as a "finger" vibrato. Carlos Alden was in Portland early last week and did give me some vibrato tips and demonstrated his finger vibrato technique. Sometimes I will want to use this technique, and other times use the violin technique.

I suspect that at least some of my discomfort is merely due to the need to keep my elbow up in a good position. Maybe enough practicing in a good position will eventually fix the problem. Regaining control over the speed may be a tougher nut to crack. It sometimes seems that my wrist knows only two vibrato speeds, on and off.

Best wishes,

David

[Charlie Huang]

You erhu people have it easy. On the qin, there are around 20 odd different vibrato you can create, most of which are puzzling to work out how to pull off when reading their description which differs from qinpu to qinpu...

[paulv]

You erhu people have it easy.

... and the erhu only has two strings which is enough for me to deal with!!!

Regards,
Paul

[calden]

"You erhu people have it easy."

Yeah, right. Our problem is that when things go bad on a gu zheng, people smile and just listen to the nice, ringy pentatonic tones. There are no wrong notes. But when things go bad on an erhu, people close doors, leave the house, file for divorce, cats run away, etc.

When I visited David in Portland recently (I bought the boat, by the way) I showed him my take on vibrato techniques. I use two:

The first is very similar to a violin technique. The left hand is held loosely at the wrist and the weight and movement feel like they come from the forearm. The finger position is held on the string, but only the point of contact stays fixed, while the upper part of the finger is loose and flexible. Imagine that the fingertip is glued on the string at that point while your hand is gently and slowly shaking up and down, not just wiggling. The Chinese term for it translates as kneading the string, which says it all.

The second is, of course, the erhu technique of pressing the string in toward the neck in a rhythmic fashion. The mechanics are like touching the fingertip to the palm of your hand. I can get some great deep and soulful sounds this way. Think way-funky slow Jimi Hendrix blues guitar.

Carlos

[calden]

Hey! I see I made it two stars! This must mean I have attained the rank of Sub-minor Prefect of Pentatonic Harmonies. Oh, wait, it says right there: Ensemble Musician.

Carlos

[davidmdahl]

calden said:

Hey! I see I made it two stars! This must mean I have attained the rank of Sub-minor Prefect of Pentatonic Harmonies. Oh, wait, it says right there: Ensemble Musician.

Carlos

And if you would post more often instead of practicing or spending time with your family, you might have three stars by now. <g>

Also you have it right when it comes to the effect of an erhu gone bad. I would appreciate if my cat would go away more often when I am practicing. She has a habit of hanging around and complaining about the awful sounds. A few times she has actually attacked my arm. Ouch!

Best wishes,

David

[Charlie Huang]

Give your cat a jinghu and let her practice on it with you on erhu together!

[paulv]

Considering the high pitch of a jinghu, I wonder what effect the sound would have on the cat's ears -- may be enough to send the cat running -- problem solved!

Regards,
Paul

[tedtseng]

I was told by my teacher that the angel of your hand and the stem of erhu should be 45 degree when playing erhu, and you are slightly touching the stem of erhu for moving fingers up and down easier. Practice vibrato with your middle finger first and then others.

[paulv]

Hi Ted,
That's pretty much what my teacher told me when I started learning vibrato. I alternated between my middle and index fingers first, then eventually used the other two. My vibrato is pretty decent now (at least I think so...). It's always good to hear what other teachers say about playing styles and techniques.

Regards,

Paul

[sanmenxia]

From watching erhu players and videos, I’ve noticed different types of vibratos:

Pressing or/and rolling on the string.
Movement from the finger, wrist, or arm.

I think pressing with the finger ( like pressing the fingertip on the palm) is common with older and “folk/ trad” players. I find it really hard to play this vibrato smoothly. Good for fast notes.

Combination of pressing and rolling with movement from the wrist, I saw this on a player in his 50s from Shanghai who used to teach at the Shanghai Consevatory of Music. Also seen on the Wang Yongde VCD.

Rolling with movement from the wrist and arm, problaby adapted from the violin.

There’s also “moving the finger up and down the string” vibrato, used on folk style pieces.

[paulv]

Sanmenxia,
Your post is pretty timely. Had a lesson last week and my teacher showed me the other vibrato technique (rolling of the finger sililar to violin). Now I know two types of vibrato, but only good with one of them -- hopefully, practice will make me proficient with both.

Regards
Paul

[sanmenxia]

Hi Paul,
Does your teacher, just roll their finger or does he/she also press on the string (wobble the string) at the same time?

[paulv]

Hi Sanmenxia,
I'm not sure if I understand you, but let me try and explain it.

The first technique he taught me was when a finger was on the string, continuously bend/straighten the finger (at the first joint near the finger tip while keeping the fingertip on the string) while twisting the wrist. My finger would go through an approx 90 degree motion from being roughly inline with the string to being perpendicular to it.

The second technique also bends/straightens the finger tip, but the finger tip stays inline with the string and goes from the entire fingertip being flat on the string to bending the finger so that just the tip is on the string.

I hope that this makes sense.

Regards,
Paul

[sanmenxia]

The 1st method: I think this is the violin type, fingertip rolling on the string with movement coming from the wrist, the change of pitch is from varying the stopped string length.

The 2nd: I’m not sure how this is different from the first, is the movement coming from the hand or wrist? Is the change of pitch from varying the string tension?

[paulv]

Seems that for the second method, it's coming from the wrist mostly, and the hand is slightly moved only to allow the finger to move.

Regards,
Paul

[rickwalker]

The violin rocking technique is modern (having been adapted by Liu Tian Hua from violin), while the finger-pushing style is traditional and widely used in the folk tradition. The rocking technique is arguably more "beautiful" being more controllable and smooth. The pushing style is more blatant and asymmetrical. The two kinds are often used together, or even blended to convey complex emotions. The pushing vibrato is particularly good for "crying" or expressing "grief" in a piece such as "flowing river". It is common to use a "delayed vibrato", playing dead calm for the first half of a note and then increasing the vibrato gradually until the end of the note. It is very rare, or even considered bad form to stop the vibrato before the end of the note once you start it.

[YouLanFengChune]

Hehe... my teachers used to call it "chi dao rouxian" the vibrato who comes late.

I think, just like the dizi, we like the note to fade away, rather than stop abruptly...