Different style Xiao embouchure cuts

[bsfloyd]

Hello everyone.  I'm looking to find information on all the different style of Xiao embouchure cuts and their relative regions of location.  I have seen those similar to the shakuhachi tang style, those with undercuts inside the flute, those undercut outside the flute like a Quena, some U notched, some V notched, etc...  I have yet to own a Xiao but love the tone produced and wanted to know more about the different styles before purchasing.  I am a flute player and maker for several years of the transverse type, but recently started exploring rim blown style flutes.  I have tang style flutes, both shakuhachi and native southwest style, and also some Quena style flutes and have learned their playing requirements.  I think the Xiao would be a much more universal flute and one I would want if stranded on a deserted island  Thanks!

[Blue]

Suggest that you purchase a "U-V" xiao. That is, U on the outside and V on the inside (bore). This makes the xiao easier to play than a regular U-notched xiao, especially when some makers don't make the best internal U-cut.

[bsfloyd]

Thanks for the tip, Blue. How similar is the U outside/V inside cut to that of a Korean Danso (other than the capped and non-capped playing end)? Also, do you know of a source that would give me all the different styles of the Xiao? I would still love to learn about them all and the changes they encountered along the way. Thanks.

[Blue]

Here's one xiao I have with U on the outside and V on the inside:



Here's a plastic danso with U on the outside and inside:



Here's a plastic xiao with U on the outside and inside:

[Blue]

If you have hundreds of dollars to spare, you could consider purchasing a xiao from Taiwanese maker Winson Liao.

www.facebook.com/liaoson?fref=ts

[bsfloyd]

Thanks for the photo explanations, Blue. I have seen Winson's videos and enjoy watching and learning from them. However, you mentioned that you feel the U outside and V inside are on the easier side. I thought Winson didn't make This style, but I could be wrong? Is the U outside V inside a not so common style with the more notable Chinese Xiao makers from the respected online Chinese purchase places like Eason and Red's?

[Flolei]

I agree with all what Blue wrote here.

I would maybe add that the V cut is more difficult than the UV one.

Winson make all styles, as you can see in this video:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=UebiXgyZZv4

UV cut is at 2:37.

[Blue]

UU (U on the outside and inside) seems to be the most common, especially for xiaos made in China. Those made in Taiwan are more typically UV for some reason.

Winson will definitely understand if you ask him to make a UV xiao.

As for those online retailers, you could try asking. Not all retailers might understand the request, but you could redirect them to this forum. It would be easier if you could examine directly in a brick and mortar shop, but the average Joe in the world doesn't have easy access to a Chinese musical instrument shop.

[bsfloyd]

Thanks for the info and link gang. After further research, Winson's Xiao's are sadly out of my budget. They sure look and sound like lovely flutes, but not at this financial time. I will need to try to find some Taiwan UV makers out there.

I have started creating my own from remaining bamboo that I have using the U outside and V inside cut to use in the interim. I also have plenty of 3/4" schedule 40 PVC but much prefer the bamboo in terms of tone - though PVC is not too shabby.

[bsfloyd]

Hey gang. I recently crafted my own flute using the U outside V inside style and it came out wonderful - I am very pleased with it. I kept it simple and went with a 4 hole Korean folk scale Nando-Kyemyonjo scale (1-2-min 3-4-5), which is the same as the Native American Mojave scale. I would like to post pics of the embouchure cut but didn't see an attachment link. How are you all posting attachments? Thanks.

[Blue]

There are two methods.

If you use regular reply rather than quick reply, you can click on the "Add Attachment" button and attach up to three images. I have the impression that only people who login can see attachment images.

The other way is to click on the "Insert Image" icon and insert the image link from another website. You could for instance upload your images onto flickr and copy the flickr "Share Photo" link on this page.

Attachments:

[Blue]

You could directly ask Eason Music if they carry U-V xiaos. If not, I could send you through private message the e-mail address of an online retailer in Taiwan who definitely knows what is a U-V xiao because she likes playing that xiao herself. She does accept paypal payments.

Here's one of the U-V xiaos she carries:
tw.bid.yahoo.com/item/%E9%87%91%E7%9F%B3%E6%A8%82%E8%88%AB-%E8%AB%8B%E5%B8%AB%E5%82%85%E7%89%B9%E5%88%A5%E5%81%9A%E7%9A%84%E6%AD%A3%E5%AE%97%E8%8A%B1%E6%96%91%E7%AB%B9-%E6%B9%98%E5%A6%83%E7%AB%B9-F-G%E8%AA%BF%E5%8C%97%E8%95%AD-f24101977

[bsfloyd]

Thanks, Blue - I had to switch to the desktop version to see the attachment link.  The mobile version doesn't show it.

Attachments:

[Blue]

Would love to see a youtube video of that U-V flute in action. Maybe I should even commission you to make one for me. You should show Winson Liao your work.

[bsfloyd]

Thanks, Blue. I'm not much of a video person but perhaps I can get a mp3 of it the next time I'm playing. However, I am a transverse flute player and still getting the hang of end blown flutes - so my embouchure is still developing for them.

Ha ha, I'm sure Winson runs circles around me but thanks for the compliment. I don't have my own immediate source for bamboo sadly. I currently get my bamboo blanks from one person in Florida (very nice silver stripe bamboo) and another person in North Carolina (not as good a bamboo species but good for experimenting with). Right now the weather here in central Ohio is still too cool for flute making with bamboo but I plan to order some more blanks soon. If you don't mind a Korean folk scale flute, I'm sure we can work something out for this one Shoot me a pm if you're interested.

Thanks again!

[bsfloyd]

I had the flute out today and was able to record a small clip of it. Please excuse my feeble playing as, like I mentioned, I am still developing my embouchure.  The recording is not the greatest, just an iPhone app and then added a little echo in Reaper.  Thanks for letting me share!

Attachments:

xiao mojave mp3.mp3 (1000.81 KB)

[Blue]

That doesn't sound like feeble playing at all. You are too modest. Sounds like a low pitched xiao. What's the length of your flute since the picture didn't show the entire flute?

[bsfloyd]

Thanks, Blue - you are encouraging. Yes, it is a low pitched Xiao. It is very close to a fundamental of low B. I will get exact measurements later tonight and possible post a pic of the entire flute.

[bsfloyd]

The flute measures approx. 24 3/4" long and the inner bore is approx. 13/16", just under 7/8".  The tuning came out at B3 @ 450 Hz.

I still need to add bindings.

Attachments:

[Flolei]

It is actually an hybrid between shakuhachi and xiao, isn't it?

[bsfloyd]

Not quite. The cut of the embouchure is just like the standard Xiao without the capped piece. All undercutting is done on the inside of the bore, whereas the shakuhachi is cut on the outside of the bore. The tuning of the shakuhachi is the minor pentatonic scale. This flute is tuned to a Korean folk scale (Nando-Kyemyonjo), which is also the same scale as the Native American Mojave scale. I find the inside bore cut to play quite different from the shakuhachi outside cut. IMO, the shakuhachi is more capable of pitch bending (meri and keri) to a greater extent than the Xiao inside cut.

[Flolei]

Thanks for explaination, it is really interesting!

[meoweth]

This has probably already been said, but the V makes the sound quieter and more focused, while the Tang-cut is the most expressive and dynamic, the U and UV are in between. Would suggest ultimately trying to play the Tang style, although its understandable that requires to relearn the embroschure. Still you will find it rewarding, and at that stage you may as well get yourself a shakuhachi, some really good quality ones on yahoo auctions..

Get a nice taiwan one from ebay or better yet, taobao using a taobao agent.

[theblackadder]

Kind of related but what do you guys think of embouchure cuts size differences?

I've always played on F qin xiaos (closed end U cut), recently got a G qin xiao (also closed end U cut) because I thought it might be fun and use less air to play.

So now I'm sitting with a tiny tiny xiao with at most 3/4 the diameter of my old xiaos and the embouchure cut is so so much smaller.
I can't play properly for some reason, I'm guessing my air column is way too large for the embouchure...

[meoweth]

Smaller diameter U-cuts, as well as Tang-cuts are going to be harder to play than bigger diameter ones for the most part. This is the same if you play a flute and then goto a piccolo which has a much smaller embrochure. It takes a while to get used to. You can play other kinds of flutes, such as dizi, bamboo irish flutes with vary embrochrue sizes, and you'll find that once you are able to play smaller embrochures, the skill will transfer onto the thinner diameter xiaos.

Overall, I suggest U-cut and Tang-cut xiaos rather than UV.