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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 2, 2007 4:59:49 GMT
In Indian music there's a term, "manasa guru", which literally means "guru by means of one's mind". In other words, it's a master you more or less formally recognize as your guru despite not being under his or her actual instruction. (There's a powerful, dramatic, morally troubling instance of this in the epic Mahabharata, where the guru in question resents the progress of his "long-distance disciple" and takes action to end it...cf. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekalavya)I thought of starting this thread when Charlie mentioned on Facebook that he presently regards Zeng Chengwei as in some sense his master. For years I've been saying the same about Wu Wenguang. He may be thousands of miles away, and I may never actually meet him, but his music has totally transformed the way I think about reality (no exaggeration!), and is endlessly challenging and fascinating to me. Does anybody else have this kind of "long-distance master"? Master of your heart and mind?
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Post by charliecharlieecho on Sept 2, 2007 6:23:19 GMT
Mine's Lin Youren, whom I've met several times but never had formal lessons from. Nonetheless 5 words from him about how to produce a good sound were more effective than years with my "official" teachers.
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 2, 2007 13:25:27 GMT
What 5 words were those?
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Post by charliecharlieecho on Sept 2, 2007 17:11:45 GMT
"Five" was figurative, but there were basically two messages. One was to aim to produce the sound of a Chinese bell, especially when doing a xiao-cuo on open fifths. The other was about how to release a right hand finger stroke. Lin Laoshi is a great believer in qi and sees music as a form of qigong, so the message was to allow qi to build up in the appropriate finger and then release it. (These things may not apply to you because you already produce a very good tone.)
Another saying I found very effective, but not from a Chinese musician, was that every note should sound as though it had been deliberately placed in the position it was played in. This was implicit in most of what my teachers taught, but the particular form of words about placing notes carefully was particularly useful.
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 2, 2007 17:40:10 GMT
I'm not sure any particular words of Wu Wenguang have worked me over, but the concluding section of his dissertation certainly did something. My whole "dynamics/timbre" obsession as evidenced on my website--the idea that dynamics/timbre is essential to the character of melodic lines, and that the qin systematically explores this element--is straight from there.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Sept 2, 2007 20:33:45 GMT
I couldn't say any words that ZCW told me with my lack of mandarin. But I can honestly say that I learnt more from him than LXT and GY put together... There's just something 'simplistic' and elegant about his playing that makes it so effortless yet I sense there is a joyous, carefree, laid-back (?) kinda feeling that somehow I find affiliated to and think this is what qin music is all about. There's also a transcendance quality which I like, how it is plain (not in the bad sense) yet a joy to listen to. He can send you on a journey with the flick of his wrists.
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Post by guzhenglover on Sept 3, 2007 3:13:34 GMT
Can't comment on who my qin master is yet. If I can be so annoying as to talk about my piano playing as a point of discussion, when I performed overseas e.g. in Europe some people there commented on how they could feel that my playing belongs to the so-called "English school" (owing to certain ways of playing the piano and interpreting the music etc.). Yet I never perceived myself as belonging to any one school of piano playing. If I was forced to make a guess, then I would say that I was probably most strongly influenced by the Paris/Cortot/Chopin school of playing and scecondarily the English school. Otherwise I'd have thought that I was a completely international kind of guy (you know what I mean). My point is: sometimes what one perceives of oneself may not be a true reflection of the real situation, and vice versa. Have you guys ever considered this point?
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Post by charliecharlieecho on Sept 3, 2007 7:31:12 GMT
In my case the short answer to GZL's lquestion is, "No". More broadly I'm not a good enough player to be able to claim my way of playing has been influenced by anyone. What I do think is that comments like the ones in reply #3 have opened my eyes/ears to what I should be concentrating on at this stage of learning to play.
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Post by Si on Sept 3, 2007 10:14:42 GMT
well people from sichuan are apparently supposed to be very laid back. hey they all seem to spend all day sitting around those tea gardens (getting their ears cleaned with a small spool).
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Post by guzhenglover on Sept 3, 2007 10:25:49 GMT
well people from sichuan are apparently supposed to be very laid back. hey they all seem to spend all day sitting around those tea gardens (getting their ears cleaned with a small spool). Really? My understanding is that the Sichuanese are among some of the most hardworking people in China, and there are supposed to be historical, traditional and even geographical backgrounds to why they are so hardworking. Of course some people do sit around all day long etc. but isn't that true of some people of other parts of China as well? And now that's really sidetracking from the original topic! Charliecharliecho is so modest about his playing, one can only admire his/her display of a virtuous/noble qin musician!
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Post by charliecharlieecho on Sept 3, 2007 11:02:02 GMT
Not really modest. I just pretend to be when I write to this forum. :-)
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Post by Charlie Huang on Sept 3, 2007 13:03:36 GMT
well people from sichuan are apparently supposed to be very laid back. hey they all seem to spend all day sitting around those tea gardens (getting their ears cleaned with a small spool). Really? My understanding is that the Sichuanese are among some of the most hardworking people in China, and there are supposed to be historical, traditional and even geographical backgrounds to why they are so hardworking. Of course some people do sit around all day long etc. but isn't that true of some people of other parts of China as well? And now that's really sidetracking from the original topic! Charliecharliecho is so modest about his playing, one can only admire his/her display of a virtuous/noble qin musician! Historically, Sichuan style is the preferred choice of poets and the like.
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 3, 2007 13:17:37 GMT
"Historically, Sichuan style is the preferred choice of poets and the like." What? ?
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Post by charliecharlieecho on Sept 3, 2007 16:13:13 GMT
A reference to Li Bai and Du Fu having spent time in Sichuan?
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Post by Charlie Huang on Sept 3, 2007 17:30:41 GMT
Source: Zhang Huaying's "Guqin", page 151.
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 3, 2007 18:53:27 GMT
Now I'm curious about what the book says. I thought that pais were pais historically precisely because the lack of audio media meant players were more decisively influenced by their teachers and colleagues. That's why the majority of pais are named after locations. I'm guessing only a minority of poets were from Sichuan...
Also, from what I recall (correct me!), we know virtually nothing about Sichuan qin music before Zhang Kongshan, apart from that one reference from the Tang about its being "stormy and active" or somesuch.
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Post by charliecharlieecho on Sept 3, 2007 20:26:42 GMT
I'm not sure that Zhang Huaying really supports Charlie here.
This people she mentions are: Han dynasty: Sima Xiangru Tang: Xu Jing, Li Bai, Zhao Yeli Song & Yuan: Su Shi, Wen Tong; Yelü Chucai Ming: Yang Shen, Ching Zhenshi
That's a fairly small number and some of them, like Su Dongpo and Wen Tong, were Sichuanese antway, so hardly likely to be unbiased.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Sept 4, 2007 7:25:03 GMT
Well, it's only a crass generalisation but poets et al. seem to be mentioning Shu or Shu mentioning them.
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Post by guzhenglover on Sept 4, 2007 8:02:38 GMT
This discussion has surely departed from the original question about pai's and schools...? Or are we going to be focusing on Sichuan players now?
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Post by Si on Sept 5, 2007 1:02:33 GMT
If you can speak chinese i think theres nothing to stop you studying with him.
Then write a book in English...........................pleeeeeeeeese
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 5, 2007 1:36:43 GMT
...except my refusal to study with anyone!!!! [diabolical laughter]
He already wrote a "book" in English, btw: his dissertation.
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Post by Si on Sept 5, 2007 4:11:36 GMT
you 21 centuary hermit!!!!!!
can the dissertation be accessed my "joe public"?
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Post by charliecharlieecho on Sept 5, 2007 6:40:58 GMT
There are places on-line where you can buy copies of dissertations/theses. Wu Wenguang did his at Wesleyan U and the subject was his father.
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Post by Si on Sept 6, 2007 1:43:41 GMT
imagine doing a dissertation about your dad, who can say if your correct about it or not. sounds immpossible to fail that subject!
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 6, 2007 2:20:36 GMT
A lot of ethnomusicians get PhDs from Wesleyan. From the two dissertations I've read (WWG and violin god L. Shankar), they tend to be a bit of a BS affair..."my life as an ethnomusician"...
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