Shenren Chang and guizhi

[Si]

I was a bit annoyed to see One gui zhi in part 7. Why bother with it?

If there were a few of them OK! but just one seems out of place and for no good reason (and the main reaon is i have never done it before and it seems hard to quickly form the exact shape)

I have half a mind to just say forget it and change it to a gao maybe.

I'am a i "rebel" or is this ok practice to substitute fingerings

[SCWGuqin]

Do the guizhi; it makes sense. You know the justification for guizhi right? Guizhi substitutes for standard ring finger when the position is too high to make ring finger efficient. Especially when there's thumb action involved, which is exactly the case here.

Guizhi is a bitch at first but will eventually be a valuable addition to your arsenal.

[Charlie Huang]

After the guizhi, you have to yan 1 semitone above; rather tight if you use the normal position on the ring finger... i.e. it is justified to use guizhi.

[Si]

No I had no idea what thid guizhi was all about. So I will have to go through the initial struggle to try to learn this new move.

Thanks for the feed back.

[Charlie Huang]

Yep, otherwise you'll have to fake it with a slide up with your thumb, which takes the charm out slightly...

[guzhenglover]

Well in the 2nd and the 3rd parts of LMC (Lu Ming Cao) there are a few guizhi notes as well, and at the moment they hurt ! They are all between the 4th and the 5th hui (and I understand that that's exactly why guizhi is used i.e. as a substitute for the ring finger above the 5th hui). I am finding (1) I haven't yet mastered the hand shape for guizhi so that the bent ring finger sits comfortably on the string; (2) my left elbow and my body seem to get in the way as my left arm moves that high up in the 4th-5th hui area; and (3) I still have to make sure that I exert sufficient pressure on the string in order that the string makes a sound when the left thumb plucks the string (as in LMC). What would you guys recommend doinig so that I can make the right hand shape, do the correct manoevre without hurting my finger? Ouch !

[SCWGuqin]

I seem to remember CCC saying differently, but as I understand guizhi, it involves building a callus just like using the ring finger. It's rather painful but should toughen with time.

As for proper form, the most important thing is to keep your other fingers relaxedly straight, rather than curling them.

[Charlie Huang]

I don't have a callous, yet I can still gui without much pain. Trick is, to use the left side of the joint of the finger tip. The boney bit is located there so you can exert the pressure more comfortably at that point. If you use the flat side (i.e. if you do not tilt the hand to your left and press it parallel to the surface), it hurts because you are pressing on the string using a wider skin area of your finger and so you expose more pain sensors to friction.

The side ('ze'):


As opposed to the 'zhengmian':


The point I use:


(note my Doctor Who audio CD in the background!)

[Si]

GZL - dont you have any callouses anywhere yet?

I found it worst whilest doing the thumb bit in Yan Guan San Die and Lin Zhing Yi. Where the thumb has to move down to the bottom joint bit and then slide - -awch (is that spelt right?)

Hey now I feel like i am body buliding my left arm cos in SRC you have to spend a lot of time doing harmonics at 10-13th hui. So the fingers cant support the arm by resting on the strings! Have to be light and springy.

[SCWGuqin]

CCC -- I think you had better "double-check" your guizhi position. I was taught that the contact point on guizhi is the corner of the nail, about half-nail and half-flesh. Your position appears to be way too high up, and is inefficient for 2 reasons. (1) You can't exert as much pressure with that contact point (think levers); (2) the string nestles quite comfortably in the position I describe, which then requires only a little toughening, as opposed to yours which includes no natural groove.

[Charlie Huang]

Hmmm, depending on which qinpu you read, either is correct.

Qinxue Rumen: Use the joint; if gui on two string, one on flesh (i.e. joint) one on nail.
Jiao'an QP: Doesn't specify which point but if gui on two string, one flesh one nail.
Qinxue Lianyao: Doesn't specify which point, if pressing on more string, stretch so that the back of the nail presses on string.
Mei'an QP: Doesn't specify which point but if gui on two string, one flesh one nail.
Wuzhi Zhai QP: Doesn't specify which point but if gui on two string, one flesh one nail.
Qinxue Congshu: Press using nail, when pressing on more strings use joint.
Deyin Tang QP: Doesn't specify which point.
Yushan Wushi QP: Chinese says joint, English says cuticle (nail)?
Guqin Shiyong Jiaocheng: Press using the bit near the joint?
Qinxue Biyao: You can use either joint or nail depending on the situation.

Personally, I find it easier to use the joint. I'll ask Gong Yi this summer as to the correct point to use according to his experience.

[guzhenglover]

I too have found various sources in the references saying either way of guizhi is possible. I really don't know what/who is right. Maybe one does guizhi differently in different musical contexts and/or for different requirements e.g. guizhi on one string vs. guizhi on two strings? I don't know, but I suspect that whichever one works is the one that's right. Can either of you - or anyone else here - settle this question once for all?

[Si]

well i was told last night that the contact point was on left side of the first knuckle loint of the ring finger - thats what i will learn now as my fingers will get spanked by my teacher if i dont do it

[Charlie Huang]

That's the point I use, Syburn.

[guzhenglover]

syburn said:

well i was told last night that the contact point was on left side of the first knuckle loint of the ring finger - thats what i will learn now as my fingers will get spanked by my teacher if i dont do it

I see . But I think Charlie also mentioned that different sources of reference may say differently about the guizhi points (and there may be two different points, as mentioned before), and while I might also use the same point as you (syburn) and Charlie, I think it's also important to learn the other guizhi pointi.e. one suggested by utmostvacuity2 so as to really master the guizhi techique in general. Do you guys feel strongly about using one guizhi point more than the other?

Sorry syburn, I seem to have missed your question earlier re whether I have any callus (I have to remember the acronym-ised version of my alias name!). Well fortunately, not yet. I've been very careful when I practise to try and use the most appropriate technique so as to avoid building up further callus and inflicting injuries to me fingers, hands and arms. After all, I've got enough of those from guzheng and piano playing!

[Si]

I would just stick to one of these methods - which every you feel most comfortable with. Then concentrate on using that. I suppose later you could switch to the other method - but I cant see the point in making things more complicated now.

[guzhenglover]

Sounds like wise advice. Thanks Syburn.

[Charlie Huang]

Actually, after getting back on the qin yesterday, I noticed I used a different point! Can't really explain, but it is the side of the ring finger. Some pics:

Actual 'point' I use:


Pressing on 1 string:


Pressing on 2 strings:


Side view:


It really isn't 'nail' or 'joint' per se, but sort of in between.

[Si]

Oh it all feel very mechanical doing this guizhi. I have to quickly change into the gui zhi shape after i do the guo on 1st string - 5.6hui. Then wait in gui zhi shape while i play the open strings, then drop down onto the 2nd string for the guizhi move. I miss the correct connection spot 7 out of 10 times. Also not sure if i should slide uo to the 5.6 hui or not.........suppose it should improve with time.

[Charlie Huang]

Your mf should still be on the first string when you play open 5, then you take it off and change to gz and press and pluck the 2nd. It should be a smooth movement. If it helps, slide up to 6 slower. Remember that it is better to under do it, than completely slide over the point. When you yan, the motion should be like a press, applying pressure and not a slapping motion.

[guzhenglover]

Hi Charlie: I guess my only comment/question is that, looking at your photos, it appears that your ring finger isn't securing the string very tightly on a given hui position when you do guizhi - or is it? I'd have thought that, given that guizhi is for notes on a higher hui position and the strings become tighter the higher up you go, you'd have needed more strength and tightness from your ring finger in order to secure a certain hui position and to be able to produce a sound. Or were you simply doing a demo illustration for us all to see (without necessarily playing anything)?

[Charlie Huang]

I can tell you it is 'secure'! Looks can be deceiving...

You do not really need much pressure to gui on a string, you just need at bit more tension when you slide up. Apply too much pressure will tire and hurt your finger.

But as you may know, one should aim so that it looks natural and light, and not tight and heavy.

[guzhenglover]

OK, Charlie, I'll take your word for it. Thanx for that.