URGENTLY SOUGHT: "Lu Ming Cao" (deer sound) rhythm

[guzhenglover]

Dear all

I posted a discussion thread on rhythmic problems in guqin music not long ago and already here's a piece that I am currently preparing and I haven't a clue regarding its rhythm (and I need to learn this piece quickly, which is why I said "urgent" in the subject - sorry for the panic caused !). That piece is "lu ming cao", or roughly, "the deer's call". Does any of you know this piece? Better still, would you have A version of the score that has RHYTHMIC INDICATIONS on it? If so, would you please be so kind as to post it up on this site for us all to share? That'd be really appreciated! It's just that I've looked everywhere for a possible source and I can't find anything on the web with a score and a rhythmic indication. I haven't got a teacher and though I did try figuring out the rhythm by listening to one of the "lao ba zhang" (the old 8) CDs, I still don't feel confident that I've captured the rhythm as that particular master rendered the piece.

Please help?? Oh, by the way, here's wishing you all a great year to come!

Guzhenglover a.k.a. guqin enthusiast

[SCWGuqin]

Don't think that a piece has only one rhythm! The whole secret to the qin tradition, WHAT MAKES IT VALUABLE, is that you give your own life to the pieces based on your feelings and insights about them. Don't worry that you can't imitate precisely what one master did 50 years ago (and it's exactly one master, and he's no superstar). The master is you, and you prove that by knowing yourself and having a perspective on the world around you. Which is all you need (plus a little concentration) to "figure out" the rhythm of a qin piece.

[guzhenglover]

Thanks utmostvacuity2 for that. The problem is, I don't think that I've had enough training and knowledge in order to do a justifable, rhythmic rendition of this piece. It also seems to me that I'd need to be equipped with the training and knowledge before I could go out and work things out on my own, for myself. Isn't it a bit like improvisation i.e. learning to perform well (according to the established tradition) before attempting to improvise, but not the other way round?

Anyway, if people could still be so kind as to give me guidance on the rhythm of this piece, I'd really appreciate that.

[SCWGuqin]

There doesn't appear to be a score online. If you're concerned about being authentic and well-received by your audience (?), two things:

1. Lu Ming is NOT a well-known piece. I personally have no idea how it goes, and I'm about as OCD as it gets. It might be the case that not a single person plays it today. Therefore...your audience probably won't have any particular expectations!

2. If Lu Ming is such a problem, why not choose something else--something for which you can get a score with rhythm?

[guzhenglover]

Thanks utmostvacuity2. I am hoping that at least one of you experts will have a score with a rhythmic indication that you might be prepared to share (Syburn? Charlie?). Or perhaps if you happen to know the piece and would be willing to write down the rhythm alongside the score...Anyway it's a comfort to know that Lu Ming isn't a well-known piece i.e. no-one will have a particular expectation how it should go.

[SCWGuqin]

Just remember, the qin thrives on weirdness too. Listen to the old Sichuan guys, or Xie Daoxiu, or Cai Deyun, or even Liu Shaochun. That is some *weird shit*, and intentionally so--breaking the rhythms and going off pitch contradict the listener's ordinary conceptions, leading to a kind of elevated, separate existence for the music which makes it "mystical". In which case it should be fairly easy to "BS" your way into sounding mystical...

Just a thought...

[Charlie Huang]

The score appears in Qinxue Congshu (1911-31) which I have. It has beat indications. I could scan it and post it if you really need it.

[Charlie Huang]

OK, here we go (I will post the links because the image size is massive for clarity, don't forget to zoom in):

img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/cardcaptorcharlie/Misc/QXCSLMC1.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/cardcaptorcharlie/Misc/QXCSLMC2.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/cardcaptorcharlie/Misc/QXCSLMC3.jpg

The black squares with the 'fan' character indicates the beat. From my calculations, each beat is equal to a minim (half-note). The stuff to the left of the black squares indicate the relation of the technique to the rhythm, whilst the stuff to the right are the lyrics.

[guzhenglover]

Many thanks, Charlie, you are a treasure ! If you would be so nice as to post the links as well, that¡¯d be great as I may need to play around with the images a bit in order to get the best results when I print those scores out. I¡¯d probably need to come back to you regarding the rhythm again if there¡¯s any question, and I hope this¡¯d be OK with you. Are you familiar with this piece yourself?

And thanks to utmostvacuity2 again for your kind comments/observation.

[Charlie Huang]

I'm not familiar with this piece as I rarely listen to it nevermind learn play it. After your mention, I might learn it next time after when I finished with Youlan.

[Si]

I have never heard of it too. (by the way lets call you GZL for short)

Is it a long piece - cos if it is i would think you should be learning some of the 1-2 min long beginners tunes. Then work up to the longer ones.

For me , i start by playing through each section, just learning the fingering and the notes. It probably does not sound right at this stage, then i will listen to the cd and try to work out each bit at a time. but i confess i have not seriously done this solo through a whole piece as i have a teacher sooo.....

and to follow on from "utmostvacuity2" - my teacher told me i had 2 choices as to how to play the opening 8 notes of SRC - so nothing is "set in stone"

Also ZCW and Wu guan whats his face play the harmonics of SRC totally differently - whos correct?; what "is" correct? - what do you like? - thats more like it!!!!!!

[Charlie Huang]

There's only 3 sections (plus the coda) in LMC.

The interparatation (spelling! God, I hate that word!) may be different but there isn't any wrong in it.

What I do is quaver, quaver, crochet, minim; quaver, quaver, crochet, minim for the first eight notes in SRC.

[guzhenglover]

I am finding that I am not altogether clear with the "he" (harmonic?) business. Are you? I don't think the literature is very clear on this, either. Is this one of those areas in guqin playing where the player decides for himself how it should be played?

When a "he" marking appears, is that supposed to link up the note before "he" with the note/articulation that comes after "he"? And when you have the "fang he" marking, how do we know whether we are supposed to let go of the note before "fang" or after it, and how the subsequent "he" is supposed to join up harmonically (e.g. the last column of the first page of LMC)? I have SOME idea on how "he" and "fang he" should be executed, but I am not really sure that I've convinced myself that I really know how it ought to work...Please help?

In fact, another question that I have (not related to LMC) is, how can lun be executed in a way that's most dexterous, clear/light and relatively in keeping with the flow/tempo of the piece? I know this question has been discussed before on this forum, and I know certain basic techniques to do with lun (which I've been practising), but I am just wondering how you experienced guqin players out there deal with lun according to your experience?

Thanks a lot for your advice on the above!

[Charlie Huang]

"He" means to match. Yes, the tab is rather vague in whether it 'he's together, or it 'he's one after the other. For me, it means the former because I'll assume that the latter refers to "ying" (to respond). Therefore, you should slide up to 9 and at the same time san tiao 4 so they both sound the same time.

Fang he is when you release a string but keeping your ring finger on the surface, press on the string below it and pluck that so the open string sounds together with the pressed string directly below it. Can be difficult to pull off initially but the key is to not pluck the pressed string too soon.

Lun: The tempo of the lun will obviously depend on the piece and your interp; it sometimes demands you play it quickly, others you need to articulate each pluck clearly.

[guzhenglover]

Thanks Charlie, I think I figured as much. My question was actually two-fold: one is interpreting the tablature and the other is executing ¡°he¡±. You¡¯ve shed some light on the latter. But regarding the first aspect of my question, I am still in doubt as to when the ¡°he¡± symbol appears, is it supposed to refer to the notation before that symbol or after that symbol? Also when the ¡°fang¡± symbol appears, I am also in doubt (well, sometimes) as to whether it¡¯s supposed to refer to the notation before or after it. Without knowing what the symbol refers to, it¡¯s not always easy to figure out which note is supposed to ¡°he¡± or ¡°fang he¡± with another note, etc. I have a feeling that ¡°he¡± is supposed to match up the notes before and after that symbol, but I am less certain about ¡°fang¡± (for e.g.¡±fang he¡± in the last column on the first page of LMC). I have an idea how it should go, but would appreciate any guidance.

Lun: I remember people saying in a previous discussion that the key is to keep lun light and clear, and speed of the execution should be of secondary concern. The problem at the moment is keeping my three fingers relaxed as each finger strums the string. Each of my three fingers in lun tends to tense up after it strums the string, for some reason (each of my fingers seems to want to move back into the original position (the rounded shape before strumming) instead of staying in the new open position. I have a feeling this is related to my piano playing habits as I tend to keep all my fingers in a rounded hand shape. The problem, though, is that I find it hard to untrain my fingers¡¯ ¡°reflex¡±). Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions? I guess this is just something that beginners need to practice hard on¡­

[SCWGuqin]

The big secret to right-hand qin fingering--which I see some experienced players violate--is that the strokes are all more or less "headlong". They follow through, like a Muay Thai kick instead of a Tae Kwon Do kick. (as in, Tae Kwon Do snaps back, while Muay Thai continues all the way "through" its target.) While you can mix things up when more advanced, at the basic level every inward stroke should smack the finger against the next string. Tiao smacks against the string ahead, while outward strokes of middle and ring fingers "snap upward" and end up quite straight. Hope you know what I mean, since it's difficult to describe in brief.

If you want to improve your lun, practice flicking your fingers out hard. Practice against a surface like a table: thump-thump-thump, thump-thump-thump, even rhythm, even pressure. It shouldn't be too hard.

[Charlie Huang]

I know about the confusing sematics of the 'he' technique in qin tab, for example, the 'water-cloud' section of XXSY in the original Wuzhi Zhai tab is a riddle in itself! I would say that 'he' would not apply to that which is after it, instead, it should relate to previous. Say your fanghe in LMC; on the third string, yin then fang third string, press on fouth at 10th hui and gou it so both strings sound the same time. In that way:

x+(x+y)

in which x = string above, y = string below, brackets = he/fanghe

The only time when they probably should not sound the same and when 'he' (note: not fanghe) is present is when the two notes are completely different and they don't respond together.

[Si]

My new teacher says;

Ti should end with the fingers all spread out flat around the hand at the end of the stroke.

Also same for Lun but for fast lun dont need to.

She has me moving up and down the 7 strings doing slow meduim and fast lun. You are suposed to hear all 3 sounds (but its sadly not always the case for me)'

she also wants me to have the thumb in tiao resting postion at the start.

I also practice lun with left hand pressing on the strings cos it seems to require more force with right hand than an open string lun.

[Charlie Huang]

syburn said:

she also wants me to have the thumb in tiao resting postion at the start.

I use to do that, but now my fingers have become so relaxed and flexible that I could take my thumb away from the index finger at the beginning of the lun.

[guzhenglover]

Re the "he" question - thanks, Charlie, you are wonderful. I must say that I was still a bit confused when you first described "fang he" as "when you release a string but keeping your ring finger on the surface, press on the string below it and pluck that so the open string sounds together with the pressed string directly below it". I didn't know what you meant by "below" but I think I know now - you mean the fourth string is below the third, right? Anyway your last message regarding this (on 5 Jan) made this pretty clear, I think (unless if I've understood it incorrectly...?). However, I am still not too clear what you meant by "keeping your ring finger on the surface". Would you care to explain that please, Charlie?

By the way, on reading Jim Binkley's translation of the "Yu-Ku-Chai" I think there's a mistake with the footnote that goes with the paragraph on "fang he" (fn. 28). The footnote says that "typically the ring finger pulls a string towards the player". Surely it's not the ring finger of the LH that pulls the string, but a finger on the RH (and the ring finger of the LH only secures the hui position)? Or am I mistaken?

Re the "lun" question - thanks for your kind advice, utmostvacuity2, syburn and Charlie. I am trying hard to get rid of the stiffness in my lun playing, which I attribute to my piano playing habits.

Any more/any other suggestions? I'd particularly like to hear further thoughts on clarifying "he" and "fang he" (though Charlie has almost clarified all my queries...)!

[Charlie Huang]

"Keeping the RF on the surface" means you finger does not lift when you fang, you keep it connected so when you fang, your finger slides towards you (downwards) and onto the string below it (in your case, the fourth string) and as you do the string you were on is released naturally and thereby it vibrates. I'm sure LXT's VCD explains this technique. That means Jim's footnote is not wrong, because you basically 'drag' the string towards you when you fang, the 'he' part is when you pluck the string below whilst the ring finger has pressed its new string so both strings sound the same time.

[guzhenglover]

Thanks Charlie. I think I understand it now - the ring finger on the LH pulls the 3rd string towards me and slides onto the 4th string (to the appropriate hui position), whilst at the same time the finger on the RH (the middle finger, in my case) plucks the 4th string (the ring finger having secured the hui position).

Can I ask you how you managed to figure this all out if you were self-taught, Charlie? It's just that I don't think I could've figure this out by myself just going by what's written in the literature (I go mainly by the information I get from the internet and I don't have any textbook or VCD by anyone; I do have a few interesting books on guqin, though). Maybe I should attend the occasional workshops, seminars and guqin events like you do?

[Charlie Huang]

TBH, when I first saw the technique, I was like, WHAT?!

Really, it comes from experience and one's own intuition. And a teacher can help you whizz past all the fumbling around at certain techniques.

[guzhenglover]

Thanks Charlie. I can't wait to actually try out my newly found knowledge of this technique and to put theory into practice! I also can't wait for any new updates on the guizhi technique as I am very eager to try it out, too (I think those pics you put up re guizhi were really clear and easy to follow, though I guess we are still waiting to see whether people agree that there can be two ways of doing guizhi...).

[SCWGuqin]

So why again did you need Lu Ming Cao so quickly? How did the process go?