ling zhong mode

[Si]

i am working on shen ren chang and i see its in ling zhong mode. so far it only seems to use 1-5 strings - is that because its very old?

is it only ling zhong mode that uses 1-5 strings only?

and why is it called forest bell - what does that mean?

[Charlie Huang]

Linzhong is the name of a Chinese pitch which western equiv. is G. It uses only five strings to mimic the ancient idea that the first qins had five strings, but one should not consider it to be such. For me, it is around the same age as Jiu Kuang because of its repetative nature and structure so around 1800 years old abouts.

[Si]

Oh shen ren chang is about 1800 years old?

Yeah its quite repetitve and there seems to be a lovely symetrical nature to it - well im only ont he opening harmonics but thats what i see so far.

[SCWGuqin]

1. There seems to be a lot of confusion/ambiguity in qin literature as to what a 'mode' is exactly. A few prelim observations from playing Linzhong Yi and Shenren Chang: those...pieces are rather similar! Heptatonic (includes second and sixth intervals, rendering church Dorian scale). Yu tonic shifting to gong at the end. Of course most yu pieces end on gong.

2. Jiu Kuang *claims* to date from the 3rd century; Shenren Chang claims to date from around *2300 BC*. This is China: we learn quickly that this kind of stuff is nonsense. The dapu specialists and musicologists can argue all they want about how old the stuff in SQMP really is: the bottom line is, we have no way of knowing how much they predate 1425. And of course SRC doesn't appear until 1549.

[Si]

But on silkqin web site - it says that it was first entioned in old qin tune lists from about 1100ad

[SCWGuqin]

Which one, Jiu Kuang or SRC?

A title is not the same as a piece. We have titles going back millennia, but that doesn't mean the music was the same.

[Si]

SRC

Yu is 2nd string and gong is 3rd string?

I have such a pile of stuff that I have printed from web sites about this type of thing that I often wish there were well designed diagrams to illustrate all these points together- i have started to make a nice one in photoshop but gave up cos my music theory is crap.

[SCWGuqin]

There really isn't any consistent and musically helpful theory from China...if anything, the music seems "anti-theoretical". The pieces encode sophisticated ideas, but nowhere in traditional writings do people stand back and go "OK, it's sophisticated for the following reasons; it achieves its emotional effect from combining the following notes". There are philosophical reasons for this rooted in what you might call the anti-structural tendencies of both Confucianism and Daoism--rather than talking in concrete terms about how to combine notes, the preference is to talk instead about things like "intention" and "meaning". Which I bought into for a very long time before realizing that "meaning" is very subjective and isn't useful for explaining how music really works.

Acquaint yourself with the pentatonic scale: Gong - Shang - Jiao - Zhi - Yu, in ascending order. Gong is 3rd string in standard tuning, Shang is 4th etc. Thus, as you say, Yu is 2nd and 7th strings.

Next acquaint yourself with what a melodic phrase is like when it "rests" or "resolves" on each of those notes. On the quick-guide level, Gong is considered "happy" as a note of resolution, and Yu is considered "negative". The others have more subtle feelings. Just go back and forth constructing simple phrases on different strings and seeing what happens. That will give you a sense of how the pitches create different emotional effects by combining with each other.

[Si]

thanks - thats interesting!

[Charlie Huang]

Actually thinking about it, I think JK and SRC is Tang dynasty (with SRC being slightly earlier), and Youlan is Wei Jin dynasty (ish). Just a theory.

[Si]

My last teacher told me Linzhong Yi is Tang and thats also in lingzhong mode. Any relevance....?

[kyokuhon]

Sorry to burden all again with my lack of Chinese, but can anyone tell me if shen ren chang is in GQQJ or other book? I love LZY, so would like to learn a similar piece.
Best,
K.

[Charlie Huang]

SRC is not in the GQQJ I'm afraid. it is in Gong Yi's book if I remember correctly (unless the score he gave me at the summer school was from another source)...

[guzhenglover]

Well after all that, I still seem a bit perplexted re those things about modes, scales, tuning, etc. Does anyone know where in the literature one might best read up on this and learn about the system in a more systematic manner? I'd really like to get this all sorted out in my head and hopefully remember it all.

[SCWGuqin]

The funny thing is, I think systematic "mode-talk" does exist in the qin literature. I've opened up qinpu and seen charts, diagrams etc. and talk about tonics and dominants at least. It's just that this doesn't seem to be a part of the qin that people actually learn about. (Thus I must infer they don't care about it either.) While some qin players may have codified modal theory in the past, I can't think of a single reference to it, or presentation of it as important, by any living master.

Not that this should prevent you from looking at the theory sections of old qinpu--the problem is, does the theory in those books adequately represent or connect with what qin players actually do today?

The lack of attention to theory probably comes from the relative lack of improvisation and composition as part of received qin practice. You don't need to understand structures in and of themselves if your entire musical career simply involves playing structures somebody else already created.

[guzhenglover]

Thanks utmostvacuity2. I've been doing a lot of reading but am still looking for that one reference book/article that actually explains everything simply and clearly so that I can understand it and remember it. I guess the fact that I am a beginner has a lot to do with why I am not following everything people are saying. Do you have one or two concise references that you consult if you need to?

[Si]

I just heard that Ling zhong mode is standard tuning minus the 6/7th string. Well that has talken the lustre of what sounded to me like some exotic mode concept.

If truth be told I really still dont understand modes and CCC has advised me not to bother with them and I suppose thats good advise. But I imagine a mode is a bit like when one concerto in is C and another can be in F or something.


For SRC - I also have not found which book its in but my teacher down-loaded it from somewhere so I am fine for the moment. Hey! - can anyone recommed another recording of SRC, my only extant cd copy is MR zheng cheng wei's and thats apparently a very fast version.

[Charlie Huang]

WWG's version uses 6/8 when he gets to the 'la mi la, do-la; la mi la, do-la; la ti, la, do-la; la ti la, do-la...' etc, which adds a much faster pace to the piece.

Only bother with modes/scales when you come to a point where it is required, i.e. when you've reached an advanced stage where you are beginning to improvise/compose.

[kyokuhon]

Hi, all,
Sooo... If SRC is a download, could someone send it to me?
Best,
K.

[davidmdahl]

syburn said:

If truth be told I really still dont understand modes and CCC has advised me not to bother with them and I suppose thats good advise. But I imagine a mode is a bit like when one concerto in is C and another can be in F or something.

No, both C and F major are the same mode: major. The term is not used very much I think, but major scales could be called "Ionian" mode. A minor scale would be a different mode, such as "Aeolian". A mode is really just a particular arrangement of intervals that make up a scale. The starting pitch does not matter at all, just the distances between the notes which gives the mode its unique flavor.

Best wishes,

David

[Si]

I can ask my teacher where she downloaded it from - a chinese website probably


So what modes are major and minor in the chinese sytem?

[guzhenglover]

syburn said:

I can ask my teacher where she downloaded it from - a chinese website probably


So what modes are major and minor in the chinese sytem?

Well if you would be so kind and wonderful, syburn, that'd be excellent! I really would like to at least attempt having this all worked out in my head, even if I am not going to be improvising yet (I will, however, start composing very soon). I have a feeling my confusion lies in not being familiar enough with the musicological context and/or background of Chinese musical theories. I say this because I feel rather at home with western musical theories and ideas about modes, scales, tuning, etc. (for e.g. what David's said). But that'd be because I am trained in western music and musicology and have grown up with it!

[kyokuhon]

Yes, thank you, syburn! If the website doesn't turn up, could someone just post the Chinese (character) name, so I can look for it. I've got a line on some Chinese lessons, but I don't think it's going to move that quickly.
Best,
K.

[davidmdahl]

syburn said:

So what modes are major and minor in the chinese sytem?

I have not run into any material discussing Han Chinese modes. Vietnamese music has over 50 modes that do not correspond to either major or minor Western scales. Regional Chinese music such as that in Guangdong often seems to have more tangy notes.

Since major and minor scales are a construction of Western music, I would not expect them to be used in any traditional Chinese music. The old music uses pentatonic modes. Of course, contemporary Chinese music often uses harmony and other traits of Western music to add to the palette.

Best wishes,

David

[davidmdahl]

I just found an excellent description of Chinese scales and modes from the perspective of a Westerner, by Christopher Evans. Check out the following link:

www.cechinatrans.demon.co.uk/toc-qin.html

Even for those not interested in the qin, the section on Chinese Traditional Music is well worth reading. In particular, be sure not to miss "Pitches, Scales and Modes."

On wikipedia.com, search on "Pentatonic". The article mentions that "The major pentatonic scale is the basic scale of the music of China..." This is another article worth reading.

Best wishes,

David