Dont buy any Guqin on Ebay

[Gishin]

My advice to all of you here is do not buy a Guqin from any seller from China on Ebay.

Most of them will sell you any item they have 3X the price they paid plus they are not even Guqin specialists. Basically they just purchased from a shop down the street or from taobao.com.

Here is a shocking example fro you all of Ebay rape of foreigners.

cgi.ebay.com/china-Music-Instrument-guqin-desk-and-tablet-chair-/130549581249?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e655c85c1

They are asking 320$ U.S for an item sold at 62$ on taobao.com.My examples could go on for the instruments as well most of them also use the direct pictures from other online shops in China.

Just be careful. We can also say the same of U.S seller when they sell you a cheap Qin at 350$ plus shipping it means they must have paid 150$ so my final words is get a teacher or if possible get one directly from a known seller/maker in China where your momey spent will be of the exact value it represents.

[xindi]

Thanks for the warning Sebastien.

This is true - the export market in China usually quadruples the fees the seller makes, just for the export privilege.

There are few buyers I'd trust to acquire an instrument, sight unseen, sound unheard. Henry Wang, of the Datung Arts Group in the west coast USA is reliable - I like his items, but I don't know if he imports guqins. I don't know how to read taobao very well...I guess any of the international resellers who have good English would be a good place to start.

Btw - is the transition to playing the guqin from a guzheng very difficult? I've avoided guqin's because of the sliding sleeve like noise it makes as well as the difficulty in perceiving any melodic structure to the music. It's beautiful when I hear it ... but I can't remember any of the music I hear of it - just the guqin sound.

[edcat7]

The above seller also listed a set of 7 ebony dizis for around £180+ postage. If they are decent dizis then the set would have been a steal. I've seen the identical ebony dizis sold at about £75 each from a different seller.

But there is no way to sample the goods before one buys and £180 + postage is alot of money to gamble.

[Gishin]

I do not know about the Guzheng transition. My wife plays Guzheng and fiddled with my Qin once once or twice and said the instrument's sound is great she likes to listen to it BUT was clear in saying it was quite hard to play compared to he Guzheng. I have to agree with her since just by ear I can sit down and play a couple known melodies. Now try that on a Qin. If one can do it right off the bat it means they have a true natural talent.

Now back to the rapes we are seeing there is the same type of stuff on taobao.com but it targets true suckers that will buy thinking they are purchasing a true treasure BUT this is quite limited since you can get a decent Qin there from known makers. The greatest part of taobao.com if you live in China or have some family there is that after purchasing on the site the payment method is by bank transfer. The funds only get released to the seller after customer confirmed satisfaction So in this way you have time to evaluate the Qin if you are a seasoned player or bring it to someone that can do so for you.

[xindi]

Hey Sebastien,

Thanks for that. I guessed as much after seeing one being played in China - completely different technique - slower paced too. Even the recorded music I have of the gu qin ... I play it back over and over, and I still can't remember the structure of the music.

Better stick with the flute lol.

I don't know anyone in China who could do what you suggest - sounds like a fantastic idea though.

Where did you buy your gu qin eventually?

[Gishin]

I got my new Qin from the YuYuefang maker/Company
item.tmall.com/item.htm?id=8105960904&prc=2

I am still waiting to get it. I got my first one from a U.S seller and basically got raped. Now for 350$ I should not have expected much but my point is if the seller got this out on the market at 350$ he must have paid 150$. Anyway that seller is a Guzheng seller not specializing in Guqin.

Now I did not expect a master quality type of sound but the tuning pegs should at least have been of normal use type. Those things were a mess. The mechanism is quite primitive so there was no excuse to get it right regardless of the value of the Qin

Now at least I know the $ spent is the real value not inflated by 2 to 3 hands along the way.

[davidmdahl]

The resident guqin guru in town told me that it is necessary to go to China to get a good guqin, and he offered to come along to help me choose. <g> That said, he was impressed with a guqin that a student purchased from Carol at Sound of China. Apparently this student had the help of a local player who checked out all of Carol's stock and chose the best one for him.

Best wishes,

David

[Gishin]

My first Qin was actually from her.

When I got it there was already a horizontal crack on the lacquer of the top board which could not have happened during shipping since this was a surface crack/deep scratch. So basically it was shipped this way.

To make things worse as mentioned before the tuning pegs are a mess and will just not stay in place no matter what making the tuning part more challenging than the playing adding frustration and wanting to burn the damn thing. So regardless of the fact I paid 350$ to her there should have been no scratch and tuning pegs should operate properly and not degrade so fast rendering tuning impossible.

I am sure some of the stuff in her batch must have been good but at 350$ She must at least be selling it for double of what it is worth. So since we have no real specialized sellers outside of China my rule is to buy from a teacher or get it from China directly and by this I mean from the maker directly not a third party like what we see on Ebay.

Same thing can by said from the other website in the U.S selling some low grade silk string a 4X the price of what it is worth. Plus other people have speculated that they might not even be true silk strings.

[davidmdahl]

I am sorry to hear that, Gishin. Did you contact Carol about the problems? She does post a return policy. I would have expected her to make it right.

Best wishes,

David

[Gishin]

Indeed this is what I could have done but I felt too irritated knowing that there was no way she could have failed to notice the scratch when shipping it then the add the tuning peg story.

Now when trying to make it right shipping to Canada is never under 60$. So I would have to ship it back then get it shipped back to me and pay customs a second time. This sounds like a lot of abuse for a Qin probably worth 150 to 200$ This makes any action useless. She should just concentrate on selling Guzheng.

[carol]

Hi Gishin:

Yes, how come I never heard of the problems from you? I always let people exchange and return the instruments with problems or without. If the instrument is really a defect, of course, I am responsible for the shipping charge, not you. If there is any problems, I want to hear about it, and figure where it when wrong, so I can make it better.

By the way, please do not say that I make 2-3 times profit on the qin. I know how much my guqin is selling in China, ok? The qin is made by a a Yangzhou maker called Xiang Yang. If you go taobao, you can find the same model I'm selling at around 2000-3000 RMB. He also makes higher model around 8000RMB. I always try to match my price with China's market price on all the instruments, plus necessary freight in and custom charges.

I know it's hard to compare guqin prices because they all look the same, but some has a price tag of 10,000RMB and some has price tag of just a few hundred yuan.

It's a lot easier to compare prices of the guzheng, because all of them have brand names and model numbers. If you copy and paste the brand names and model from my site to China's websites, you'll realize the prices match pretty well.

Last, I don't buy my instruments from the market and make several times profit, ok! I purchase the instruments directly from the makers just like the stores in China do. My cost is the same as the stores in China's cost + necessary shipping and custom fees. The price I sell is the same as the stores in china sell. That is if you visit a honest store who sell at reasonable profit or MSRP, not those stores that rip people off! What makes you feel that the prices in USA has to be 2-3 times higher than in China?

Quite a few guqin teachers have been buying the two guqin models I'm selling steadily and refer students to me. They have good reputation also considering in the price.

My services here is just to offer people a convenience to acquire instruments, since these instruments are not commonly available. The purpose of the store is not to make huge profit or to rip people off.

There is also a good reason that I do not carry higher-end guqin models. One time I was in Long Feng factory and saw a very well-known qin maker there buying qins directly from Long Feng, and asked them to engrave caligraphy and his signature at the back. The qins he purchased from Long Feng for 1200RMB turned into his hand-made one selling at over 10,000RMB.

I don't see the price is justified just because he added his signature. I also don't see a lot of qins out there selling over 5000RMB has a sound quality justified to it's price. There are good ones out there in very expensive prices, but I don't have confidence that I won't be cheated. So, I'd rather just carrying the two models that I feel they are of inexpensive price with descent quality.

[Gishin]

Everybody is entitled to their side of the story.

My point remains if you sell an item 350$ you must have paid half the price. Now you say you do this as a service to help people more than a business. You could be totally right but I find it hard to believe that someone would go trough all the troubles of Importing such an item pay for a website,custom,taxes,Ebay fees etc for maybe a profit of 50$.

Your website and ebay info just said the maker was from Yangzhou and you never mentioned his name which leaves us in the realm of uncertainty. Usually seller are proud to say where their material comes from and who the maker is.

Back to my Qin there is no excuse to have had the item shiped with a scratch like this fro the beginning. This flaw was there from the beginning and was not due to shipping. As stated before the tuning pegs were an issue from the beginning as well. I have to say the sound was decent but without good tuning pegs the rest is irrelevant.

Should I have contacted you? What would you have done? Even is you paid for the shipping I would ned to explain and argue with you wasting my time and money in discussions,shipping, refunds, Taxes and duty when receiving another Qin etc for a 350$ Item.

Now you could still make this right yet you came in writing a statement trying to explain or justify yourself. If all was totally right you have no need to justify yourself other than say OK if you feel that it is that bad even if it was more than a year ago send it back I will refund you or send you a new one. Thsi would have shut me up real good and showed you truly believed in your product.

Why would I say this? I used to sell antique Japanese swords which were imported directly from Japan so I guess you can know how much those things were. Once a customer was told by a friend the swords was having the true signature even if the sword had been evaluated by the NBTHK. Was this an excuse or a true fact? As soon as I saw some hints of this I refunded him directly.

I guess we can still reach a compromise since you came here and discuss about it.

[carol]

Sorry, I got your name from your signature, and I went back to check the email messages and sales record. The guqin you bought was in September, 2009.

I received email messages from you once in Janaury 4th, 2010, where you wrote "I am very satisfied with the instrument", and once in July 22nd, 2010, where you wrote "I am very satisfied with it so far and would like to purchase a hard case for the guqin". You didn't tell me about the scratch or any problems with the guqin in either emails.

I don't know why all the problems came out all of sudden two years later, and are claimed as exist since the beginning.

Any way, just return the instrument to me. I'll give you full refund.

My shipping address is:
Sound of Asia
2146 S. Hacienda Blvd.
Hacienda Heights, CA 91745
USA

Thanks.

Carol

[Gishin]

Indeed you are right about the emails. But the scratch was there and should not have been there. I let it pas because i did not want to go trough the trouble of shipping it back and forth and arguing about it.

But when the tuning pegs were unusable this became another story. When my wife decided to get a better Qin on taobao she got quite mad when she saw we could get a better Qin for cheaper and directly from the maker. We contacted multiple makers and it was clear that the tuning pegs should not be such an issue. We also compared and discussed selling practices and it was evident most Qin sold by sellers or on Ebay or the U.S is at least 2X the original value.

[carol]

I believe if there is a scratch that should not been there, it should be mentioned and resolved long time ago, not 2 years later.

The tuning pegs are just standard wooden pegs that most qin makers purchased from certain factories. Most qin makers are using the same ones. There are also better ones made by jade or harder wood. Those pegs are not part of the guqin body, they are totally detachable.

If you've restrung the qin, you need to pull the strings really tight. The pegs are only used for minor tuning adjustment. They are not designed to be the only device that holds the tension of the strings. If your strings are loose, and you are trying to tighten the strings by keep turning the tuning pegs, of course, they got loose.
If you have problems with restringing, you should have asked.

Any way, as I said just return the guqin to me, and I'll give you a full refund. I sincerely hope you'll enjoy your new qin.

[davidmdahl]

If I may make a suggestion to Gishin and others who order instruments over the Internet, please try to resolve problems privately before making public complaints, as soon as possible after the transaction. Stuff happens, and the best vendors may mess up, and there is no telling what can happen at Customs and during shipping. It is reasonable to give vendors a chance to fix problems. There is often the temptation to assume the worse, and avoid confronting a vendor, but when approached with calm respect and reasonable concerns, most vendors will try to make things right.

Gishin, you have an offer of a full refund. That appears to be a very reasonable remedy.

Best wishes,

David

[Gishin]

Yes the offer is good.

The in was restrung at least 4X times and each time we managed to get it to almost the exact letters CDFGACD. Yet anytime the pegs will slip badly when trying to re-tune it. This was happening on metal strings and not silk wich is known so re stretch.

Again the offer is good and I have to thank Carol for it. Now since I am not in need of 350$ and all I want is a Qin in working order when we moved to a new house this year and while packing I finally brought the firewood expression to reality and gave that Qin the fireplace treatment since it was clear nothing good could be done when normal tuning and stringing was done.

[xindi]

Well done Carol!

Sounds like you got a superb service there Gishin.

I'm glad to hear you got it sorted out - it'd be awful to be landed with such a fantastic instrument in an unplayable condition.

I'm not sure how long qins last for (when played moderately)? I should read up and find how they are played ... they seem way more portable than a guzheng!

[Si]

cant u buy from NAGA?
Yeah best is buy in China. Its win win cos you get a great holiday as well as visiting guqin shops where u can buy all sorts of guqin related materials and books and cds. Plus they would give you a few lessons im sure!!

[Charlie Huang]

Really, this is all over the top.

Firstly, the value of a qin depends on what people are willing to pay for it. There are good basic decent qins for beginners that go for a few hundred whilst master level ones go for several thousand. The only way to be sure is to actually examine the said instrument in question. Some master qins are not that good yet some beginners qins are really good. It isn't like a violin; each qin is different. I have two qins, one I bought for c. £850 from NAGA in 2003 and one I bought for £1,350 from Zeng Chengwei (a master qin maker) in 2009 and they are priced correctly IMHO.

Secondly, slipping pegs can mean several things. The strings are under-tuned during stringing so the tuning pegs cannot tune them higher, the rongko cord is not made of pure silk or the pegs are not up to scratch. All of these can be fixed very easily.

Thirdly, disputes between sellers and customers ought to be done in private.

Fourthly, you are right that eBay is not the place to go to buy qins, nor is taobao. You should buy through qin makers or teacher or players or the like that have people to back them up on quality.

Fifthly, a scratch on a qin is not a defect (all my qins have one or two). A big crack on the playing surface that impedes playing or all the hui are in the wrong position would be.

And finally, the instrument described sounds in perfect playing condition to me. The problems with the accoutrements has no bearing on it being a good qin capable of good music.

[Si]

My first qin was cheap and the sound was not so full and I did discoved bubbles on the laquer and a groove developed in the laquer and i cant spell laquer, but I did not really need to change it for a few years cos i was busy trying to learn the instrument. So even if you get a not so good qin first, you will deffo want to upgrade in a few years and then you can hang your old qin on the wall or pass it on to a newcomer.

[xindi]

How hard is it to pick up playing Si?

I was thinking of one, mostly cos the guzheng is too melodic (i need to start doing pentatonic minor scales maybe).

Where in China would be a good place to go fetch!

[Si]

Shanghai or Beijing I suppose. Only familiar with shanghai though - but I think Beijing will have more places to buy.

If you have musical skill already will be easier.

Probably most difficult is learning all the new notation which is in something like Chinese.

[omaio]

true that great advice